Winch accident in New Zealand, can low time student pilot be blamed?

I belong to the club where this happened .
The inquiry is still going on but from comments made by
people actually there when it happened.
The pilot had already flown earlier in the day in the same glider.
The witnesses said the pilot rotated early and was a bit steep in the
initial climb but then started to turn right when in full climb
at around 300 ft, the deviation to the right continued until back release
occurred when the PW5 promptly rolled into a spin.
Partial recovery seemed to happen and the PW5 landed straddling a
driveway. The farm type 7 wire fences on either side of that driveway
acted like arrestor wires.The pilot has 2 broken ankles a
broken arm and other minor injuries.The pilot I think is from Hong Kong
and I believe has already been flown home.
The PW5 is known to want to go to full climb quickly if not prevented
but I know a Nimbus 2 will do exactly the same if winched a bit quick so
don't blame the glider ,this accident has the look of pilot error.
A lot of the training here is on the 2 seat PW6 so type conversion problems
are likely not an issue.
gary

"Andre Volant" wrote in message
om...
http://www.glidingmagazine.com/NewsArticle.asp?id=1371
http://www.glidingmagazine.com/
Correct "CG" release was used, which on PW5 is offsett forward of the
CG.
I was told that the nose hook is not allowed for winch towing of PW5.
That's what manual sais, but who knows why?
Which other gliders are not allowed to be winched by the nose?
I was told that PW5 has front and rear ballast weights, how
complicated is it?
Who is resposible for checking weight and ballance, if for example
student pilot has 3 hours (40 flights X 5min) of flight experience?
When does resposibility of flight instructor end?

Andre

goneill wrote:

The witnesses said the pilot rotated early and was a bit steep in the
initial climb but then started to turn right when in full climb

Judging from my lawn-chair, I'm tempted to say: Watch your airspeed!

Stefan

----------
Dans l'article , Stefan
a écrit :


goneill wrote:

The witnesses said the pilot rotated early and was a bit steep in the
initial climb but then started to turn right when in full climb

Judging from my lawn-chair, I'm tempted to say: Watch your airspeed!


Not only the airspeed. As the load factor may be high despite the pilot
doesn't feel it, the angle of attack may be near the stall angle with a
speed well over the normal 1g stall speed. Maybe the only symptom of the
near stall angle of attack in this case is the loss of roll damping and
the ensuing tendancy to drop a wing which is much more easily countered
with the rudder than the elevator. The fact that the glider involved in
the accident started to bank to the right may be an indication that this
was the case.

On aerotow, my top two critical items on the PW-5 were

trim set forward
spoilers locked

I'd love to know where this PW-5 trim was set. Anyone look at it after the
accident? I used to set 3 for launch, and use 7 or 8 (edge of stall) for
thermalling only.

In article , goneill wrote:
I belong to the club where this happened .
The inquiry is still going on but from comments made by
people actually there when it happened.
The pilot had already flown earlier in the day in the same glider.
The witnesses said the pilot rotated early and was a bit steep in the
initial climb but then started to turn right when in full climb
at around 300 ft, the deviation to the right continued until back release
occurred when the PW5 promptly rolled into a spin.
Partial recovery seemed to happen and the PW5 landed straddling a
driveway. The farm type 7 wire fences on either side of that driveway
acted like arrestor wires.The pilot has 2 broken ankles a
broken arm and other minor injuries.The pilot I think is from Hong Kong
and I believe has already been flown home.
The PW5 is known to want to go to full climb quickly if not prevented
but I know a Nimbus 2 will do exactly the same if winched a bit quick so
don't blame the glider ,this accident has the look of pilot error.
A lot of the training here is on the 2 seat PW6 so type conversion problems
are likely not an issue.
gary

"Andre Volant" wrote in message
. com...
http://www.glidingmagazine.com/NewsArticle.asp?id=1371
http://www.glidingmagazine.com/
Correct "CG" release was used, which on PW5 is offsett forward of the
CG.
I was told that the nose hook is not allowed for winch towing of PW5.
That's what manual sais, but who knows why?
Which other gliders are not allowed to be winched by the nose?
I was told that PW5 has front and rear ballast weights, how
complicated is it?
Who is resposible for checking weight and ballance, if for example
student pilot has 3 hours (40 flights X 5min) of flight experience?
When does resposibility of flight instructor end?

Andre




--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

As a low time pilot myself - but most of it on winch starts - I can
perhaps offer the following (not having read the reports - just this
thread):
- in the "action" of a fast winch launch - compared to tow - it can be
easy to fixate on rotation into (too steep) climb and airspeed and not
to check simple things like are my wings level. Sounds like to the
pilot too far off level and "fell off the side" of the climb into a stall
- some correction for crosswind is usually only initated above 100m
check (300 ft AGL) - at least that it what I've been taught
Andrew

goneill wrote:
I belong to the club where this happened .
The inquiry is still going on but from comments made by
people actually there when it happened.
The pilot had already flown earlier in the day in the same glider.
The witnesses said the pilot rotated early and was a bit steep in the
initial climb but then started to turn right when in full climb
at around 300 ft, the deviation to the right continued until back release
occurred when the PW5 promptly rolled into a spin.
Partial recovery seemed to happen and the PW5 landed straddling a
driveway. The farm type 7 wire fences on either side of that driveway
acted like arrestor wires.The pilot has 2 broken ankles a
broken arm and other minor injuries.The pilot I think is from Hong Kong
and I believe has already been flown home.
The PW5 is known to want to go to full climb quickly if not prevented
but I know a Nimbus 2 will do exactly the same if winched a bit quick so
don't blame the glider ,this accident has the look of pilot error.
A lot of the training here is on the 2 seat PW6 so type conversion problems
are likely not an issue.
gary

"Andre Volant" wrote in message
om...

http://www.glidingmagazine.com/NewsArticle.asp?id=1371
http://www.glidingmagazine.com/
Correct "CG" release was used, which on PW5 is offsett forward of the
CG.
I was told that the nose hook is not allowed for winch towing of PW5.
That's what manual sais, but who knows why?
Which other gliders are not allowed to be winched by the nose?
I was told that PW5 has front and rear ballast weights, how
complicated is it?
Who is resposible for checking weight and ballance, if for example
student pilot has 3 hours (40 flights X 5min) of flight experience?
When does resposibility of flight instructor end?

Andre

Andre,

Cg hooks require more pilot attention as the tow line/wire does not
provide any additional stability as is the case with a nose hook. In
fact, it can severly aggrevate misuse of the controls. This is why a
nose hook is always preferred for aerotow.

For ground launches using a nose hook, the principal problem would
appear to be overpowering the elevator. The higher your angle of
climb, the more elevator would be required to keep the cable from
pitching the nose down. (A cg hook would not affect stick pressures
since the force vector is through the glider's cg, ie, no/little
forward pitch moment). Aside from load and structure problems, here's
the real killer. If the cable breaks, you have nearly full rear stick
applied. If not release immediataley, you are likely to enter a low
altitude, accelerated stall. Bad news.

I suspect that the problem related in the article was an acceleratated
stall while still on the cable. This would explain loss of control and
back release. It's not hard to see how an inexperienced pilot might
abuse the controls during launch and wind up in just such a situation.


(Andre Volant) wrote in message . com...
http://www.glidingmagazine.com/NewsArticle.asp?id=1371
http://www.glidingmagazine.com/
Correct "CG" release was used, which on PW5 is offsett forward of the
CG.
I was told that the nose hook is not allowed for winch towing of PW5.
That's what manual sais, but who knows why?
Which other gliders are not allowed to be winched by the nose?
I was told that PW5 has front and rear ballast weights, how
complicated is it?
Who is resposible for checking weight and ballance, if for example
student pilot has 3 hours (40 flights X 5min) of flight experience?
When does resposibility of flight instructor end?

Andre

Chris OCallaghan wrote:

I suspect that the problem related in the article was an acceleratated
stall while still on the cable. This would explain loss of control and
back release. It's not hard to see how an inexperienced pilot might
abuse the controls during launch and wind up in just such a situation.

Agree --

In Nova Scotia, at a winch only club with 20+ years experience, a fatal
accident occurred during a launch. The pilot accelerated and took off
normally, then rotated toward full climb sooner than we teach. The HP18
had a high speed stall and spun rapidly on the wire and into the ground
from no more than 300 feet. This was the pilot's second launch of the
day. The first was normal. Too steep too soon can result in a high speed
stall.

I winch launched my PW5 at this home club for five years -- no problems
but I paid close attention to maintaining control of the flight
attitude and launch profile -- as I did on all the other ships that the
club operates.

The club Ka8 was noticeably harder to control at the begining of a
launch but we never had a launch accident with either glider type.

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 22:15:53 UTC, (Andre
Volant) wrote:

: I was told that the nose hook is not allowed for winch towing of PW5.
: That's what manual sais, but who knows why?
: Which other gliders are not allowed to be winched by the nose?

Most of them. Two main reasons: you get one heck of a down pull right
at the front as the launch proceeds and nose hooks don't have back
releases.

In fact, the Pirat is the only glider I have come across in which
winching with the nose hook is explicitly allowed in the pilot
handbook: you are told to use full forward trim (gets the trim tab up:
every little helps) and to expect only around 60% of the launch height
you'd get with the belly hook. And it still doesn't have a back
release...

: Who is resposible for checking weight and ballance, if for example
: student pilot has 3 hours (40 flights X 5min) of flight experience?

The pilot. No doubt. No argument.

: When does resposibility of flight instructor end?

In one sense, when s/he gets out the back seat. In another sense, as
long as the pilot is flying.

Ian

"Andre Volant" wrote in message
om...
http://www.glidingmagazine.com/NewsArticle.asp?id=1371
http://www.glidingmagazine.com/
I was told that PW5 has front and rear ballast weights, how
complicated is it?
The PW5 has compartments for lead shot ballast under the seat pan.
I don't believe there's any official rear ballast position, but I do know of
pilots who have put a pound or two of lead sheets in the flat area where the
horizontal stabilizer attaches.
It's not a complicated arrangement, but any addition of ballast in either
position would be specific to the pilot and should be done by the pilot
IMHO.

I've been flying for about 7 years and in my estimation there's good news
and bad news in answer to the question "can low time student pilot be
blamed?"
The bad news is yes, in most every accident I've read about the pilot
_in_command_ could have done something to prevent the accident.
The good news is we have in our own hands and heads the ability to prevent
the accident that will kill us.

Brent