Change training aircraft? C172* vs. PA28-*

"Steve.T" wrote in message
ups.com...
Do yourself a favor and finish your Private in the plane you soloed in.
Remember, your solo sign-off is a type rating! That means you will have
to be signed off for solo for each type of aircraft you will fly. C150
and C152 require a sign-off for each.


Single Engine Land below 12,500 lbs MaxGW do not require "type ratings".

Only insurance companies require " insurance signoffs" to fly different
models of aircraft...
Not the FARs... (at least in US) .. most sign offs for small fixed gear
trainers can be completed within one hour by a competent pilot and CFI.
Transition checkouts to "complex" or "high performance" SEL aircraft will
require additional training.

BT

Either way (hi or low wing) be sure you get experience with aft CG.
The 172 elevator forces really go down with aft CG. Actually 172s
handle better with rearward CG, and the worst handling is full fuel and
two in front only. I suspect Cherokees would be the same way.

"Metavalent" wrote in message
.verio.net...

What are your aircraft recommendations for a new student?
My own perspective: C-152 -- money saver(if your weigh less than
160lbs); PA28-161 or 181 -- least hours to get your Private Pilot
Certificate; C-172SP -- pricey, but new and nicely equipped; SR22 --
more expensive, but you get cutting edge technology and performance.

I trained in Warriors and switched to a 172N after getting my license. I
found the Warrior easier overall, particularly in crosswinds. The Warrior is
less sensitive in pitch and has less adverse yaw, so it doesn't force you to
learn to use the rudder as much. However, both are fairly tame and the
performance envelope is similar enough that switching wont be too
challenging.

If you switch, you may spend 5 or more hours re-developing your feel for the
plane. Figure that as a cost versus sticking with the 172SP.

Personally, if I ran the world, I would strip every piece of avionics out of
primary trainers except for a transponder and com radio. Airspeed,
altimeter, and tachometer are the only instruments you need to be learning
about at this stage.

-cwk.

BTIZ wrote:
"Steve.T" wrote in message
Do yourself a favor and finish your Private in the plane you soloed in.
Remember, your solo sign-off is a type rating! That means you will have
to be signed off for solo for each type of aircraft you will fly. C150
and C152 require a sign-off for each.

Single Engine Land below 12,500 lbs MaxGW do not require "type ratings".

Only insurance companies require " insurance signoffs" to fly different
models of aircraft...
Not the FARs... (at least in US) .. most sign offs for small fixed gear
trainers can be completed within one hour by a competent pilot and CFI.
Transition checkouts to "complex" or "high performance" SEL aircraft will
require additional training.

I think what Steve was referring to is student pilot limitations. I solo'd
in a C172 and did both my x-countries in the C172. I bought the PA28
before I completed training. That meant the CFI had to approve
me for solo in the PA28. A couple hours more training then
he signed me off. In the back of my logbook there's a section on
Endorsements. The first solo endorsement reads

"...is competent to make safe solo flights in a Cessna 172 only with
prior knowledge and consent..."

The second endorsement reads

"...is competent to make safe solo flights in a PA28A and C172 in
winds less than 15 kts..."

The second one was when I was allowed to go other places, too.

Yes, fuel management is different. On the other hand, if electricity
fails, the manual flaps still work just fine.

As I said, for most differences, it's really just a religious
(or political) issue.

Ok... that makes more sense... but it is not a "type rating"....

We do the same here with our students.. most make their first solo in the
SGS 2-33A, two seats..
then we cut them loose solo in the SGS 1-26D, single seat.. cockpit check
and a sign off..

standard wording about an instructor on the field with knowledge of the
students intent

BT

"Blanche Cohen" wrote in message
...
BTIZ wrote:
"Steve.T" wrote in message
Do yourself a favor and finish your Private in the plane you soloed in.
Remember, your solo sign-off is a type rating! That means you will have
to be signed off for solo for each type of aircraft you will fly. C150
and C152 require a sign-off for each.

Single Engine Land below 12,500 lbs MaxGW do not require "type ratings".

Only insurance companies require " insurance signoffs" to fly different
models of aircraft...
Not the FARs... (at least in US) .. most sign offs for small fixed gear
trainers can be completed within one hour by a competent pilot and CFI.
Transition checkouts to "complex" or "high performance" SEL aircraft will
require additional training.

I think what Steve was referring to is student pilot limitations. I solo'd
in a C172 and did both my x-countries in the C172. I bought the PA28
before I completed training. That meant the CFI had to approve
me for solo in the PA28. A couple hours more training then
he signed me off. In the back of my logbook there's a section on
Endorsements. The first solo endorsement reads

"...is competent to make safe solo flights in a Cessna 172 only with
prior knowledge and consent..."

The second endorsement reads

"...is competent to make safe solo flights in a PA28A and C172 in
winds less than 15 kts..."

The second one was when I was allowed to go other places, too.

Yes, fuel management is different. On the other hand, if electricity
fails, the manual flaps still work just fine.

As I said, for most differences, it's really just a religious
(or political) issue.

well.. at least leave them a wet compass for the cross country work.. LOL
of course they will really learn compass lead/lag problems

(BTW, I think it is one of the required instruments..)

BT

"Colin W Kingsbury" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Metavalent" wrote in message
.verio.net...

What are your aircraft recommendations for a new student?
My own perspective: C-152 -- money saver(if your weigh less than
160lbs); PA28-161 or 181 -- least hours to get your Private Pilot
Certificate; C-172SP -- pricey, but new and nicely equipped; SR22 --
more expensive, but you get cutting edge technology and performance.

I trained in Warriors and switched to a 172N after getting my license. I
found the Warrior easier overall, particularly in crosswinds. The Warrior
is
less sensitive in pitch and has less adverse yaw, so it doesn't force you
to
learn to use the rudder as much. However, both are fairly tame and the
performance envelope is similar enough that switching wont be too
challenging.

If you switch, you may spend 5 or more hours re-developing your feel for
the
plane. Figure that as a cost versus sticking with the 172SP.

Personally, if I ran the world, I would strip every piece of avionics out
of
primary trainers except for a transponder and com radio. Airspeed,
altimeter, and tachometer are the only instruments you need to be learning
about at this stage.

-cwk.

Wow! Awesome responses. Thanks so much. I do have to say that my CFI
has done a great job in making this the case. Even with the fancy
electronics at hand, he smacked me down if I even THOUGHT about going
for the flashy gadgets. He's very much of the school described below
and I'm grateful for it!

well.. at least leave them a wet compass for the cross country work.. LOL
of course they will really learn compass lead/lag problems

(BTW, I think it is one of the required instruments..)

BT

Personally, if I ran the world, I would strip every piece of avionics out
of
primary trainers except for a transponder and com radio. Airspeed,
altimeter, and tachometer are the only instruments you need to be learning
about at this stage.

-cwk.

"Metavalent" wrote

Are you posting in plain text? Check your settings. It is the norm to use
plain text instead of html on the newsgroups.

Thanks
--
Jim in NC

Actually, if you look at requirements for a student pilot, they must be
signed off for each type of aircraft they will fly solo. Kind of a Type
Rating if you think about it. And while a student, I think a CFI can't
sign you off until you can prove you can do slow flight, stall recovery
and controlled landings in that particular type of plane.

When I first soloed, I did it in a C152. Because we had done training
in the C150 at that point, all I had to do for my instructor was make
two landings w/o him having to say or do anything - he then signed me
off for the C150.

After my PP, I was checked out in a C172 w/in 2 hours total time. All I
had to do was prove that I could land the plane, and do slow flight.
All the insurance company wanted was a CFI to say I could handle the
plane.

Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

Using Thunderbird and HTML always turned off! I hate html in email, much
less usenet! Anathema! However, looks like if I hit reply to a message
composed in HTML, thunderbird assumes the recipient prefers that? Will
keep an eye on it, for sure.

Morgans wrote:
"Metavalent" wrote

Are you posting in plain text? Check your settings. It is the norm to use
plain text instead of html on the newsgroups.

Thanks