Gyrocopter Speed

"Kevin O'Brien" kevin@org-header-is-my-domain-name wrote in message
news:2005040512392116807%kevin@orgheaderismydomain name...
(I can only think of one gyro manufacturer that has actually instrumented
a test aircraft the way, well, professionals do).
cheers

-=K=-


If you don't want to answer this, that's Ok, but would you mind stating
which gyro manufacturer that is? I'll take it as opinion only but I'm
curious.

Rule #1: Don't hit anything big.


Personally, I'd just as soon NOT hit anything at all! :-)

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

"SHIVER ME TIMBERS" wrote in message
...
Kensandyeggo wrote:

Nothing that I could see.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Long time no hear from Mr. Eggo.

Was kinda wondering what you were up to these past few months.

I kinda dropped out of the newsgroup scene for a while but I'm back,
just kinda lurking and enjoying Kevins stories about the day in the
life of a helicopter pilot trainee.

So are you and the bottomless pit still doing your burger runs to the
outlying areas.... or what.?????

Curious minds always want to know.

Here, here! :-)

Kevin, your input is interesting, but please let me take a moment and
correct a few remarks you made....


Kevin O'Brien wrote:

Gyro designers and marketing operations used to be mostly on the
up-and-up. Then came Dennis Fetters and the first Air Command (I have to
stress that the current Air Command is a whole different operation, that
makes a safe gyro and as far as I know sells it honestly). Dennis's gyro
had the best specs in the industry, thanks to Dennis's skills.

Skills at typing press relases and performance charts....

Unfortunately, when his numbers got loose in the wild, people believed
them.


The Air Command Gyros that I manufactured all lived up to their
performance specifications, all 1,200 of them. The fact is that we
traveled world wide and demonstrated the aircraft, and out performed
everyone, every place and every time, hands down. That is why we sold
98% of all gyros being built in the worlds market when I owned the company.


"Gee, why would I buy a gyro that cruises at 65 when this Air
Command goes 110?"


By reading your own statement above explains your misconception. You are
comparing a competitors "cruse" speed with the "top" speed of the
fastest, most powerful and streamlined Commander we ever built, and we
never sold that one to the public. And yes, we demonstrated it many
times at the air shows that it could sustain 110 mph+, using a 4
cylinder Italian made 120 hp Arrow engine. Our fastest production
machine would sustain a top speed of 95 mph in level flight, faster in a
slight decent. Cruse was 65 mph+, same as you tried to compare above.


That set off an arms race of spiraling, bogus
performance claims. For other gyro makers, none of whom ever got rich at
this thing, it was "lie or die."


Actually, since we stormed the market and took 98% of all world gyro
sells within two years, our competitors had to lie about their
performance or bite the big one. The fact was that they could not
compete with the price or performance of Air Command aircraft, except to
lie or copy it, as you can see what happened. Even Bensen Aircraft
closed it's doors less than two years after we started selling, they
just couldn't compete.


I think many of them don't even KNOW
what the true performance numbers of their sheenry is.


I agree with you. Most do lie about their performance, and most do not
know what the true performance numbers are. In fact, most don't
understand why they fly. As one so called manufacturer told me once,
"it's the dully-whoppers on top what make it fly".

Hope this information helps.

Sincerely,

Dennis Fetters

Dennis Fetters wrote:
Kevin, your input is interesting, but please let me take a moment and

Shut up.

Kevin O'Brien wrote:
On 2005-04-05 03:20:13 -0400, "Kensandyeggo" said:
....
Gyro designers and marketing operations used to be mostly on the
up-and-up. Then came Dennis Fetters and the first Air Command (I have
to stress that the current Air Command is a whole different operation,
that makes a safe gyro and as far as I know sells it honestly).
Dennis's gyro had the best specs in the industry, thanks to Dennis's
skills.

Skills at typing press relases and performance charts....

Kensandyeggo knows the Fetters legend well.

http://tinyurl.com/5xlps

On 2005-04-05 16:16:25 -0400, "Steve R."
said:

If you don't want to answer this, that's Ok, but would you mind stating
which gyro manufacturer that is? I'll take it as opinion only but I'm
curious.

Groen Brothers has flown a fully instrumented sport gyoplane. It was a
side effect of their Hawk 4 program -- they had all the telemetry gear
from the Hawk and used it in the development of, first, a
stability-enhancement kit for the RAF 2000, and secondly, for the AAI
Sparrowhawk which shares many of the components of the stability
enhancement kit.

You can see the Sparrowhawk at www.americanautogyro.com and they show
at major airshows. For example, they're at Sun-n-Fun in the main area
(not out in the Choppertown wilderness) right now, and they are flying
demos from Plant City (a nearby airport).
--
cheers

-=K=-

Rule #1: Don't hit anything big.

On 2005-04-05 19:06:32 -0400, Dennis Fetters
said:

The Air Command Gyros that I manufactured all lived up to their
performance specifications, all 1,200 of them.

You had 1,200 specifications?

Oh, 1,200 gyros. Yep. Most of which had dangerously high thrustlines. I
will say that this hazard was not at all widely understood in the sport
at the time, and that by the time that it was clear, Air Command was in
new hands.

The fact is that we traveled world wide and demonstrated the aircraft,
and out performed everyone, every place and every time, hands down.
That is why we sold 98% of all gyros being built in the worlds market
when I owned the company.

I think that you are giving far too much credit to your gyro and not
nearly enough to your own ability and skill as a salesman.


ly, since we stormed the market and took 98% of all world gyro sells
within two years, our competitors had to lie about their performance or
bite the big one. The fact was that they could not compete with the
price or performance of Air Command aircraft, except to lie or copy it,
as you can see what happened.

The Rotax engine was a natural addition to gyroplanes (it was already
storming the ultralight world), but you do deserve credit for being the
first to see that and take action. Of course, it led inevitably to a
higher thrustline, because the geared Rotax needed a longer prop than
the direct-drive Mac.

The unintended consequences of high thrustline gyroplanes are now well known.


Even Bensen Aircraft closed it's doors less than two years after we
started selling, they just couldn't compete.

Dr Bensen was dead. I think that he had a similar gift of sales
ability, although I never knew the guy. But it is pretty hard to run an
aircraft company, I would suppose, when the fellow with the ideas is
gone and has not been replaced.

But I do believe, Dennis, that your marketing of both the Air Command
and later, the Mini-500, was textbook quality. With the Air Command,
buyers were made to feel part of a community.

Also -- credit where credit is due -- it is my understanding that if
you bought an AC during the Dennis Fetters area, Dennis reciprocated by
buying you membership in the Popular Rotorcraft Association for a year.
It would be in the PRA and in informally associated online fora that
the battle over centerline thrust would be fought.

gree with you. Most do lie about their performance, and most do not
know what the true performance numbers are. In fact, most don't
understand why they fly. As one so called manufacturer told me once,
"it's the dully-whoppers on top what make it fly".

Jesus H. Christ. I think that the current state of the market is not
that dreadful; there are certainly people who understand RW
aerodynamics and other aeronautical "facts that is facts" and can
explain autorotative flight without recourse to "dully-whoppers".

Some of those manufacturers include Ernie Boyette (dominator), Ron
Herron (little wing), and Groen Brothers (AAI/Sparrowhawk).

As I see the basic problem, it is one of resources. There are few
barriers to entry as a kit manufacturer, so there are many
manufacturers operating on a shoestring, desperately undercapitalized.
None of them can afford to instrument a gyro and collect the data, even
if they knew what to do with it once they had it. I tend to be leery of
kit aircraft specifications in general. Manufacturers have strong
incentives to, at minimum, select the most optimistic numbers available.

Even magazine tests are usually meaningless because (1) the numbers
records depend on the aircraft's own instrumentation, and (2) the data
is not corrected for a international standard atmosphere. Ergo, the
data can't be reasonably compared to other data gathered at other
places and times.

The influential makers of gyroplanes today all design safe, centerline
thrust machines. Air Command still makes an upgrade kit for those of
the Fetters era that remain unconverted. I consider an unconverted AC
an unstable, hazardous machine, best converted, grounded, or only flown
by expert pilots in favorable weather.
--
cheers

-=K=-

Rule #1: Don't hit anything big.

Kevin O'Brien wrote:
The Air Command Gyros that I manufactured all lived up to their
performance specifications, all 1,200 of them.


You had 1,200 specifications?


Kevin, I'm sure you understood what was being said, if not then the
problem here is with you. Why do you feel the need to do something like
that?


Oh, 1,200 gyros. Yep. Most of which had dangerously high thrustlines.


Kevin, you must be new to gyroplanes, or you would know that there is
nothing wrong with the way a classic gyroplane flies. Have you ever
flown a gyroplane of classic design? If so, then you would not be saying
such things.


I
will say that this hazard was not at all widely understood in the sport
at the time, and that by the time that it was clear, Air Command was in
new hands.


It was very understood, and known not to be a problem. In fact the
classic Commander was, and is a stable hands off flying aircraft.


The fact is that we traveled world wide and demonstrated the
aircraft, and out performed everyone, every place and every time,
hands down. That is why we sold 98% of all gyros being built in the
worlds market when I owned the company.


I think that you are giving far too much credit to your gyro and not
nearly enough to your own ability and skill as a salesman.


I think you are taking far to much intelligence away from people and how
they make decisions. Sure, I'm a salesman, and a designer and tool and
die maker. I have much experience manufacturing aircraft, in fact over
1700, but the aircraft I sold all were seen at the air shows, where you
can't fool anybody when they are seeing it with their own eyes.


ly, since we stormed the market and took 98% of all world gyro sells
within two years, our competitors had to lie about their performance
or bite the big one. The fact was that they could not compete with the
price or performance of Air Command aircraft, except to lie or copy
it, as you can see what happened.


The Rotax engine was a natural addition to gyroplanes (it was already
storming the ultralight world), but you do deserve credit for being the
first to see that and take action. Of course, it led inevitably to a
higher thrustline, because the geared Rotax needed a longer prop than
the direct-drive Mac.
The unintended consequences of high thrustline gyroplanes are now well
known.


Again, this leads me to believe you have a lack of experience in the
gyro field. I would suggest that you learn more about a wider verity of
gyros and their characteristics before trying to compare the evils of
one over the other.


Even Bensen Aircraft closed it's doors less than two years after we
started selling, they just couldn't compete.


Dr Bensen was dead. I think that he had a similar gift of sales ability,
although I never knew the guy. But it is pretty hard to run an aircraft
company, I would suppose, when the fellow with the ideas is gone and has
not been replaced.


This pretty much explains it, you must be new to the gyro field. I did
know the guy, and was over to his house many times for dinner, where we
had many intriguing conversations. If he was dead, then he sure fooled
me. His company was open and being ran by him for 3 years after I
started Air Command, and he lived for many years after he closed his
doors. Sorry dude, but when you're wrong, your wrong.


But I do believe, Dennis, that your marketing of both the Air Command
and later, the Mini-500, was textbook quality. With the Air Command,
buyers were made to feel part of a community.


Yes they were. We had many get-togethers for our customers, and offered
free help and mechanical training to all.


Also -- credit where credit is due -- it is my understanding that if you
bought an AC during the Dennis Fetters area, Dennis reciprocated by
buying you membership in the Popular Rotorcraft Association for a year.


Yes we did, and to my knowledge, no other manufacturer did the same.


It would be in the PRA and in informally associated online fora that the
battle over centerline thrust would be fought.


The blind leading the blind.


gree with you. Most do lie about their performance, and most do not
know what the true performance numbers are. In fact, most don't
understand why they fly. As one so called manufacturer told me once,
"it's the dully-whoppers on top what make it fly".


Jesus H. Christ. I think that the current state of the market is not
that dreadful; there are certainly people who understand RW aerodynamics
and other aeronautical "facts that is facts" and can explain
autorotative flight without recourse to "dully-whoppers".


Well, then make up your mind. You said: "I think many of them don't even
KNOW what the true performance numbers of their sheenry is."

Why must you talk like that? It serves no purpose and only makes people
question if you are emotionally able to discuss a topic.


The influential makers of gyroplanes today all design safe, centerline
thrust machines. Air Command still makes an upgrade kit for those of the
Fetters era that remain unconverted.


Yes they do, and what an opportunity to sell a bunch of upgrade kits
during the hysteria! I have to admit, it would have been tempting to me
too, if I would have just acquired the company and wanted a good
infusion of cash.


I consider an unconverted AC an
unstable, hazardous machine, best converted, grounded, or only flown by
expert pilots in favorable weather.


You do not know what you are talking about. Someone has brainwashed you
to the point of tunnel vision, and that's dangerous. The classic
machines have been flying for many, many years. The problem is training,
the lack of it. Plain and simple. The gyroplane is plagued with people
thinking they can teach themselves to fly it, in fact, 9 out of 10
people that want to learn to fly a gyro, think they can teach
themselves. There is the problem, and the only problem. Sure, there were
some gyro's built that were unstable, but not the Bensens, or the
Brocks, or the Commanders. They fly just fine. Saying that they were
unstable is just not true.

Just my 2 cents worth:

By way of introductions, and I'm sure this will disqualify me from having
anything valid to say by some folks out there but........

I'm not a gyro pilot. I've been interested in them for over 10 years now.
One of the reasons I'm not a gyro pilot is because of all the arguing and
"tit for tat" bantering that I've seen go on, "forever," on that makes a
safe gyro and what doesn't. As a lay person, interested in the aircraft,
it's hard to know who to believe and who not to and after a while, you get
to the point where it's not worth worrying about any more but the past few
years have seen a "coming together" of people from both sides of the
argument and, unlike 5 to 10 years ago, there's a pretty solid consensus of
what design parameters a pusher style gyro should have in order to be safe.
I don't have a degree in aerodynamics but I'm not a total dunce in the
common sense department either. The basics of this are not hard to
understand.

The two biggest design parameters for the pusher style gyro a

1. Center line thrust - that is, the thrust line from the engine should be
running through the vertical CG of the aircraft.
2. Some form of effective horizontal stabilizer.


"Dennis Fetters" wrote in message
m...

It was very understood, and known not to be a problem. In fact the classic
Commander was, and is a stable hands off flying aircraft.


High thrust line gyros are capable of one "VERY" bad thing, it's called a
power push over (PPO). Yes, many were being flown successfully by
experienced pilots. There were also a lot of people getting themselves
killed in these very same designs. Whenever this happened, it was always
the pilots fault. He didn't have enough experience and/or not enough
training. This is a very easy claim to make, especially for the
manufacturer, as it points the finger of fault to someone else. The problem
is, the "operator error" claim starts wearing thin when the same kind of
accident keeps happening over and over and over again and not all the
victims were green, low time pilots! I'm not saying the pilot wasn't a
factor, most certainly, they were but there was obviously something else
very wrong here too!

Just because high thrust line gyros can be flown hands off under certain
circumstances doesn't mean they are safe aircraft. The fact is, whether
it's pilot induced or the result of atmospheric effects, the aircraft should


The blind leading the blind.


Based on some of the arguments I've witnessed in person at PRA fly-in's in
Mentone and on the Internet, especially in the mid to late '90's, I can't
argue with that one too much but I don't think it's a valid, or at least not
"as" valid a statement these days as it was back then.

Yes they do, and what an opportunity to sell a bunch of upgrade kits
during the hysteria! I have to admit, it would have been tempting to me
too, if I would have just acquired the company and wanted a good infusion
of cash.


Hysteria?? I don't think so. Yes, the argments were long and heated but
Red Smith didn't just rush out an "upgrade" kit to take advantage of
everyone elses fears and pad his own pocket. He bought the company from, I
assume, the guys that bought it from you. They (the Florida group) left a
number of customers sitting out in the cold after they had put money down
for a new kit. Red Smith filled those orders after buying Air Command even
though he wasn't technically obligated to do that. I'm sure it was a
financial hardship at the time but he showed his true colors by taking care
of those people. He had also been running the company for a number of years
before the centerline conversion came out. Your statement that he "just
acquired the company and wanted a good infusion of cash" paints an
inaccurate picture.

You do not know what you are talking about. Someone has brainwashed you to
the point of tunnel vision, and that's dangerous. The classic machines
have been flying for many, many years. The problem is training, the lack
of it. Plain and simple. The gyroplane is plagued with people thinking
they can teach themselves to fly it, in fact, 9 out of 10 people that want
to learn to fly a gyro, think they can teach themselves. There is the
problem, and the only problem. Sure, there were some gyro's built that
were unstable, but not the Bensens, or the Brocks, or the Commanders. They
fly just fine. Saying that they were unstable is just not true.


Brainwashed?? Tunnel vision?? Not hardly. Sure the "classic" machines
were flying for many years. A lot of those folks were self taught because
there simply weren't any gyro instructors around. As the sport took off, a
lot of folks killed themselves trying to self instruct. Thankfully, that's
not the situation these days. While gyro instructors aren't exactly a
dime-a-dozen, they are out there and there's no real excuse not to get
proper training.

The simple fact of the matter is, due to their high thrust line designs,
these machine are capable of PPO. This is something that NO gyro should
EVER be prone to under ANY circumstances!!! Centerline thrust versions are
not capable of PPO. There is NO excuse to fly a high thrust line gyro,
given what is known about their flight characteristics these days.

I don't blame you for continuing to defend the original design of the Air
Command. To admit that there "might" be an issue with it would be to open
yourself up for all kind of liability problems.

Again, I'm not a gyro pilot but I am a fixed wing pilot. I've seen a LOT of
high time, supposedly professional pilots, do some pretty stupid things.
Just because an aircraft with an inherent design issue is flown for 500 hrs
without mishap, doesn't mean it's a safe design. Red Smith showed a great
deal of integrity when he brought out the centerline conversion for the Air
Command. If I do get into this (I haven't given up on the dream entirely),
his machine will be high on my list of those to consider.

FWIW!
Fly Safe,
Steve R.

Steve,

You're just wasting your time with Mr. Fetters. He is well known in the
gyro and experimental helicopter world and all that you will ever hear
from him is self-serving nonsense. Truth, or god forbid physics, will
never enter into it.

There really is consensus within the gyro community about what makes a
stable gyroplane. Only one manufacturer, RAF, does not acknowledge the
importance of an adequate horizontal stabilizer and near center line
thrust. RAF continue to ignore the physics and the accident statistics
for reasons known only to them. Many, if not most, RAFs currently flying
have been fitted with horizontal stabilizers by the owners againt the
factory's advise. This dramatically reduces, but does not eliminate, the
tendancy to PPO, and has certainly saved lives.

The fact is, the early Bensens with their direct drive engines and small
props were very close to center line thrust. Although they lacked a stab
and had considerable dynamic instability, they did not have a large
tendancy to PPO. It was when people began to use more powerful engines
and larger props that they had to raise the engine on the mast and
created very dangerous machines with very high thrustlines. The early
Air Commands and the KB3 are good examples of these later generation
machines. To be fair, early on it seems that many manufacturers didn't
really understand the dangers of a high thrust line, but the ones like
RAF and the early Air Command who refused, and in RAF's case, continue
to refuse, to modify their designs once the physics was well understood
and documented, are simply criminal. For Mr. Fetters to imply that the
new Air Command's CLT upgrade kits, which are quite reasonably priced,
were simply a money making scam, would be laughable if it weren't for
the blood that has been shed.

I am a gyro pilot with a PP certificate and a Rotorcraft-Gyroplane rating.

Steve R. wrote:
Just my 2 cents worth:

By way of introductions, and I'm sure this will disqualify me from having
anything valid to say by some folks out there but........

I'm not a gyro pilot. I've been interested in them for over 10 years now.
One of the reasons I'm not a gyro pilot is because of all the arguing and
"tit for tat" bantering that I've seen go on, "forever," on that makes a
safe gyro and what doesn't. As a lay person, interested in the aircraft,
it's hard to know who to believe and who not to and after a while, you get
to the point where it's not worth worrying about any more but the past few
years have seen a "coming together" of people from both sides of the
argument and, unlike 5 to 10 years ago, there's a pretty solid consensus of
what design parameters a pusher style gyro should have in order to be safe.
I don't have a degree in aerodynamics but I'm not a total dunce in the
common sense department either. The basics of this are not hard to
understand.

The two biggest design parameters for the pusher style gyro a

1. Center line thrust - that is, the thrust line from the engine should be
running through the vertical CG of the aircraft.
2. Some form of effective horizontal stabilizer.


"Dennis Fetters" wrote in message
m...

It was very understood, and known not to be a problem. In fact the classic
Commander was, and is a stable hands off flying aircraft.



High thrust line gyros are capable of one "VERY" bad thing, it's called a
power push over (PPO). Yes, many were being flown successfully by
experienced pilots. There were also a lot of people getting themselves
killed in these very same designs. Whenever this happened, it was always
the pilots fault. He didn't have enough experience and/or not enough
training. This is a very easy claim to make, especially for the
manufacturer, as it points the finger of fault to someone else. The problem
is, the "operator error" claim starts wearing thin when the same kind of
accident keeps happening over and over and over again and not all the
victims were green, low time pilots! I'm not saying the pilot wasn't a
factor, most certainly, they were but there was obviously something else
very wrong here too!

Just because high thrust line gyros can be flown hands off under certain
circumstances doesn't mean they are safe aircraft. The fact is, whether
it's pilot induced or the result of atmospheric effects, the aircraft should


The blind leading the blind.



Based on some of the arguments I've witnessed in person at PRA fly-in's in
Mentone and on the Internet, especially in the mid to late '90's, I can't
argue with that one too much but I don't think it's a valid, or at least not
"as" valid a statement these days as it was back then.


Yes they do, and what an opportunity to sell a bunch of upgrade kits
during the hysteria! I have to admit, it would have been tempting to me
too, if I would have just acquired the company and wanted a good infusion
of cash.



Hysteria?? I don't think so. Yes, the argments were long and heated but
Red Smith didn't just rush out an "upgrade" kit to take advantage of
everyone elses fears and pad his own pocket. He bought the company from, I
assume, the guys that bought it from you. They (the Florida group) left a
number of customers sitting out in the cold after they had put money down
for a new kit. Red Smith filled those orders after buying Air Command even
though he wasn't technically obligated to do that. I'm sure it was a
financial hardship at the time but he showed his true colors by taking care
of those people. He had also been running the company for a number of years
before the centerline conversion came out. Your statement that he "just
acquired the company and wanted a good infusion of cash" paints an
inaccurate picture.


You do not know what you are talking about. Someone has brainwashed you to
the point of tunnel vision, and that's dangerous. The classic machines
have been flying for many, many years. The problem is training, the lack
of it. Plain and simple. The gyroplane is plagued with people thinking
they can teach themselves to fly it, in fact, 9 out of 10 people that want
to learn to fly a gyro, think they can teach themselves. There is the
problem, and the only problem. Sure, there were some gyro's built that
were unstable, but not the Bensens, or the Brocks, or the Commanders. They
fly just fine. Saying that they were unstable is just not true.



Brainwashed?? Tunnel vision?? Not hardly. Sure the "classic" machines
were flying for many years. A lot of those folks were self taught because
there simply weren't any gyro instructors around. As the sport took off, a
lot of folks killed themselves trying to self instruct. Thankfully, that's
not the situation these days. While gyro instructors aren't exactly a
dime-a-dozen, they are out there and there's no real excuse not to get
proper training.

The simple fact of the matter is, due to their high thrust line designs,
these machine are capable of PPO. This is something that NO gyro should
EVER be prone to under ANY circumstances!!! Centerline thrust versions are
not capable of PPO. There is NO excuse to fly a high thrust line gyro,
given what is known about their flight characteristics these days.

I don't blame you for continuing to defend the original design of the Air
Command. To admit that there "might" be an issue with it would be to open
yourself up for all kind of liability problems.

Again, I'm not a gyro pilot but I am a fixed wing pilot. I've seen a LOT of
high time, supposedly professional pilots, do some pretty stupid things.
Just because an aircraft with an inherent design issue is flown for 500 hrs
without mishap, doesn't mean it's a safe design. Red Smith showed a great
deal of integrity when he brought out the centerline conversion for the Air
Command. If I do get into this (I haven't given up on the dream entirely),
his machine will be high on my list of those to consider.

FWIW!
Fly Safe,
Steve R.