inverted Schweizer towhook

On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 12:55:38 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:28:02 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:53:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 6:22:48 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
By the way why would you install a Schweizer hook when that Tost hook is a better, safer product?

Charles, my club has two pawnees, each with (non inverted) Schweizer towhooks. The proposal being considered is that we invert these existing hooks, since that cost seems much lower than buying two Tost hooks (listed at at about $2,500 each). If cost was no issue, I would prefer to instal two Tost hooks personally. The reason for inverting the Schweizer hooks is to hopefully eliminate the possibility that these hooks fail to release in a kiting incident.

The inversion of the Schweizer hook is the least that should be done but I agree with Mr Longley, the Tost hook is a better safer product. While you are at it why not insure that the release handle is available to the tow pilot while in the upright, seated position? I can tell you from experience that when you are in a sudden kiting situation, reaching for the handle down on the floor isn't easy. Towing is dangerous as we all know, everything that can be done SHOULD be done to give the tow pilot a fighting chance to stay alive.

What I find most telling is that the last two kiting incidents resulting in the death of the tow pilot had INSTRUCTORS at the controls of the glider. INSTRUCTORS!!! How can you expect a 15 year old kid with her head up her ass to respond correctly when INSTRUCTORS can't seem to do so?

Invert the hook or better yet, spend the money for the Tost system and bring the release handle up where the tow pilot will have a fighting chance when incompetence and lack of attention raises its ugly head. ANYTHING less and you are not serious about safety.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow PIlot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

The last fatal accident proved conclusively that even if you have the ideal release system (in that case a guillotine that severed the rope) you cannot guarantee that the tow pilot will be saved. You need a KGARS.

Tom

Very true. Flying tow is dangerous but the fact remains, if instructors can't be trusted to fly the airplane, to not properly secure the canopy before take off, to not reach for the canopy when it opens low on tow, to not take their eyes off the tow plane even for a moment, to not release IMMEDIATELY on losing sight of the tow plane, how can young students be expected to perform flawlessly? Often our instinctive reactions are the wrong reactions. I am appalled that today there are still tow planes with Schweizer hooks conventionally installed. Nothing in aviation is 100 percent safe, never has been, never will be but to ignore the most evident of dangerous conditions is folly.

Walt Connelly

On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 7:48:47 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 12:55:38 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:28:02 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:53:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 6:22:48 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
By the way why would you install a Schweizer hook when that Tost hook is a better, safer product?

Charles, my club has two pawnees, each with (non inverted) Schweizer towhooks. The proposal being considered is that we invert these existing hooks, since that cost seems much lower than buying two Tost hooks (listed at at about $2,500 each). If cost was no issue, I would prefer to instal two Tost hooks personally. The reason for inverting the Schweizer hooks is to hopefully eliminate the possibility that these hooks fail to release in a kiting incident.

The inversion of the Schweizer hook is the least that should be done but I agree with Mr Longley, the Tost hook is a better safer product. While you are at it why not insure that the release handle is available to the tow pilot while in the upright, seated position? I can tell you from experience that when you are in a sudden kiting situation, reaching for the handle down on the floor isn't easy. Towing is dangerous as we all know, everything that can be done SHOULD be done to give the tow pilot a fighting chance to stay alive.

What I find most telling is that the last two kiting incidents resulting in the death of the tow pilot had INSTRUCTORS at the controls of the glider. INSTRUCTORS!!! How can you expect a 15 year old kid with her head up her ass to respond correctly when INSTRUCTORS can't seem to do so?

Invert the hook or better yet, spend the money for the Tost system and bring the release handle up where the tow pilot will have a fighting chance when incompetence and lack of attention raises its ugly head. ANYTHING less and you are not serious about safety.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow PIlot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

The last fatal accident proved conclusively that even if you have the ideal release system (in that case a guillotine that severed the rope) you cannot guarantee that the tow pilot will be saved. You need a KGARS.

Tom

Very true. Flying tow is dangerous but the fact remains, if instructors can't be trusted to fly the airplane, to not properly secure the canopy before take off, to not reach for the canopy when it opens low on tow, to not take their eyes off the tow plane even for a moment, to not release IMMEDIATELY on losing sight of the tow plane, how can young students be expected to perform flawlessly? Often our instinctive reactions are the wrong reactions. I am appalled that today there are still tow planes with Schweizer hooks conventionally installed. Nothing in aviation is 100 percent safe, never has been, never will be but to ignore the most evident of dangerous conditions is folly.

Walt Connelly

Well said Walt.
Scott

For those that don't know what a KGARS is (I didn't - must have missed that thread) it is a "Kiting Glider Automatic Release System".

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.aviation.soaring/KGARS$20%E2%80%93$20Kiting$20Glider$20Automatic$20 Release$20system%7Csort:date/rec.aviation.soaring/B3vT0I-qfMw/DLyWDrPCBgAJ

"Charles Longley
Sorry I wasn’t clear. A FAA form 337 is required. A field approval is not required.
I live near Seattle if anyone needs a hook installed."

So I'm curious. If your documenting your work on a 337 without a field approval, you are considering the alteration a major.
So what approved data are you using to make this alteration?

"Charles Longley
Sorry I wasn’t clear. A FAA form 337 is required. A field approval is not required.
I live near Seattle if anyone needs a hook installed."

So I'm curious. If your documenting your work on a 337 without a field approval, you are considering the alteration a major.
So what approved data are you using to make this release inversion alteration?

INSTRUCTORS...Â* There are, indeed, a lot of terrific instructors, but
simply having the rating does not convey super piloting skills to the
holder.Â* There are several instructors with whom I would not let my wife
fly nor would I let them fly my aircraft.

I've flown many different types of tow planes with many types of release
handles and the hopper dump handle is the best thing I've used, and I've
dumped more than one glider when necessary.Â* That said, I agree about
the Tost release being superior, but I would add that the guillotine
with a push button on the stick to cut the rope as a backup to the
hopper dump lever would be the safest of all possibilities.

On 7/28/2020 10:27 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:53:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 6:22:48 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
By the way why would you install a Schweizer hook when that Tost hook is a better, safer product?
Charles, my club has two pawnees, each with (non inverted) Schweizer towhooks. The proposal being considered is that we invert these existing hooks, since that cost seems much lower than buying two Tost hooks (listed at at about $2,500 each). If cost was no issue, I would prefer to instal two Tost hooks personally. The reason for inverting the Schweizer hooks is to hopefully eliminate the possibility that these hooks fail to release in a kiting incident.
The inversion of the Schweizer hook is the least that should be done but I agree with Mr Longley, the Tost hook is a better safer product. While you are at it why not insure that the release handle is available to the tow pilot while in the upright, seated position? I can tell you from experience that when you are in a sudden kiting situation, reaching for the handle down on the floor isn't easy. Towing is dangerous as we all know, everything that can be done SHOULD be done to give the tow pilot a fighting chance to stay alive.

What I find most telling is that the last two kiting incidents resulting in the death of the tow pilot had INSTRUCTORS at the controls of the glider. INSTRUCTORS!!! How can you expect a 15 year old kid with her head up her ass to respond correctly when INSTRUCTORS can't seem to do so?

Invert the hook or better yet, spend the money for the Tost system and bring the release handle up where the tow pilot will have a fighting chance when incompetence and lack of attention raises its ugly head. ANYTHING less and you are not serious about safety.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow PIlot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

--
Dan, 5J

When I suffered an engine failure at around 200' while still over the
runway and while towing my wife (she was pre-solo), she was pulling her
release while I was pulling my release.Â* She returned safely to the
runway and after rolling to a stop, her instructor asked, "Did you do
that?"Â* She replied in the affirmative.

On 7/29/2020 6:48 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 12:55:38 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:28:02 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 9:53:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 6:22:48 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
By the way why would you install a Schweizer hook when that Tost hook is a better, safer product?
Charles, my club has two pawnees, each with (non inverted) Schweizer towhooks. The proposal being considered is that we invert these existing hooks, since that cost seems much lower than buying two Tost hooks (listed at at about $2,500 each). If cost was no issue, I would prefer to instal two Tost hooks personally. The reason for inverting the Schweizer hooks is to hopefully eliminate the possibility that these hooks fail to release in a kiting incident.
The inversion of the Schweizer hook is the least that should be done but I agree with Mr Longley, the Tost hook is a better safer product. While you are at it why not insure that the release handle is available to the tow pilot while in the upright, seated position? I can tell you from experience that when you are in a sudden kiting situation, reaching for the handle down on the floor isn't easy. Towing is dangerous as we all know, everything that can be done SHOULD be done to give the tow pilot a fighting chance to stay alive.

What I find most telling is that the last two kiting incidents resulting in the death of the tow pilot had INSTRUCTORS at the controls of the glider. INSTRUCTORS!!! How can you expect a 15 year old kid with her head up her ass to respond correctly when INSTRUCTORS can't seem to do so?

Invert the hook or better yet, spend the money for the Tost system and bring the release handle up where the tow pilot will have a fighting chance when incompetence and lack of attention raises its ugly head. ANYTHING less and you are not serious about safety.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow PIlot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
The last fatal accident proved conclusively that even if you have the ideal release system (in that case a guillotine that severed the rope) you cannot guarantee that the tow pilot will be saved. You need a KGARS.

Tom
Very true. Flying tow is dangerous but the fact remains, if instructors can't be trusted to fly the airplane, to not properly secure the canopy before take off, to not reach for the canopy when it opens low on tow, to not take their eyes off the tow plane even for a moment, to not release IMMEDIATELY on losing sight of the tow plane, how can young students be expected to perform flawlessly? Often our instinctive reactions are the wrong reactions. I am appalled that today there are still tow planes with Schweizer hooks conventionally installed. Nothing in aviation is 100 percent safe, never has been, never will be but to ignore the most evident of dangerous conditions is folly.

Walt Connelly

--
Dan, 5J

On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 6:53:07 AM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
Sorry I wasn’t clear. A FAA form 337 is required. A field approval is not required.
I live near Seattle if anyone needs a hook installed.

Charles, thanks for explaining this. Its a puzzle to me that the FAA does not encourage, or even mandate, inverting all Schweizer towhooks. The FAA show an inverted Schweizer towhook in their FAA Glider Pilot Manual (albeit they show a non-approved ring) and the FAA also note the danger of the non-inverted Schweizer installation in their AC-43.13-2B. The danger of the non-inverted installation is also commonly agreed among all tow pilots I have spoken to. Yet the FAA don't encourage changing all such hooks, but rather encourage leaving them non-inverted by leaving paperwork obstacles in place.

First off are you an A&P/IA? Secondly do you understand what the FAA has written in the various Advisory Circulars pertaining to tow hitches?

On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 8:05:44 PM UTC-7, Charles Longley wrote:
First off are you an A&P/IA? Secondly do you understand what the FAA has written in the various Advisory Circulars pertaining to tow hitches?

no, yes.