Alarming news stories on instructor and student down at HPN

R.L. wrote:
Lets all admit that this accident was the confluence and outcome of serial
misjudgments, just like the examples in the textbooks. Can anyone argue that
good judgment ruled the day?

That flight had no business happening. That instructor had no business
taking a VFR primary student on a cross-country to Albany in Saturday's
weather and back practicing instrument approaches in really low IMC under

They are in IMC, or IMC develops at home while they are off. Instructor offers
that he can fly in or out in IMC, so they can still do the day somewhere else.
If the instructor is rated, thats perfectly ok. If he wasn't, and the field
was IFR, then you have a case.

The rest of this speculation and horse**** is deleted. These people are dead.
They are not going to get undead anytime soon, so they can wait for a proper
investigation. You can't ? Tough.

Do we know how the weather was? I've taken students out when the AWOS
says 1/2 mile vis with indef ceiling 100 feet (we get a lot of fog
around here). It's good practice for the student to shoot real
approaches with some misses (we have above fog alternates close by). An
approach to a 100 foot ceiling is interesting since it usually means
you see the rabbit at 200 feet.
-Robert, CFI

What is bad? Below IFR mins? Primary students SHOULD get some actual
cloud time.

-Robert, CFI

Scott Moore wrote:
The public does not *get* flying. If they did, they would do it. People
ride motorcycles, which are far more likely to get you killed, and
think nothing of it.

Now you sound like the reporter! Most people that have been riding
(motorcycles) for any length of time don't "think nothing of it" ...
most are well aware of the danger and risk involved.

In article .com,
Robert M. Gary wrote:

What is bad? Below IFR mins? Primary students SHOULD get some actual
cloud time.

-Robert, CFI


VV 200', Indefinate ceiling, very low visibility, temp/dewpoint spread
0 degrees, gusty winds and heavy rain on and off throughout the day.
I'd say it was pretty bad.

Would you really take a primary student out on a day like that? I
didn't fly that day, wouldn't have if you asked me to. They had no
business being there. I do not disagree with you that taking a primary
student on an IFR flight in actual can be a good thing. In fact I took
such a flight during my primary training as it was a wonderful learning
experience. There are good times to do it and bad times to do it. I do
not think it's necessary to take a primary student down to minimums in
order to give him or her the experience of being in IMC. Saturday was
a very bad day to be doing this. That's my opinion.

If I seem particularly ****ed about this it is because this is the type
of thing that gives GA a black eye and could lead to the closing of an
airport. Believe me, HPN has had enough pressure on it before this.
This will only make it worse.

I'll lay off now. Thanks for listening.

wrote in message
...
Scott Moore wrote:
The public does not *get* flying. If they did, they would do it. People
ride motorcycles, which are far more likely to get you killed, and
think nothing of it.

Now you sound like the reporter! Most people that have been riding
(motorcycles) for any length of time don't "think nothing of it" ...
most are well aware of the danger and risk involved.

Furthermore, as has been amply documented in other threads here, the risk of
GA flying is about comparable to the risk of motorcycle riding; motorcycles
are not "far more likely" to get you killed.

--Gary

"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

What is bad? Below IFR mins? Primary students SHOULD get some actual
cloud time.

According to the METARs that corresponded to the accident time, the weather
was low IFR to below minimums.

In another thread someone posted a link that showed the METAR history from
that day.

--
Peter













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Amen


"Tom Fleischman" k wrote in
message
news:260420052122024335%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun ...
In article .com,
Robert M. Gary wrote:

What is bad? Below IFR mins? Primary students SHOULD get some actual
cloud time.

-Robert, CFI


VV 200', Indefinate ceiling, very low visibility, temp/dewpoint spread
0 degrees, gusty winds and heavy rain on and off throughout the day.
I'd say it was pretty bad.

Would you really take a primary student out on a day like that? I
didn't fly that day, wouldn't have if you asked me to. They had no
business being there. I do not disagree with you that taking a primary
student on an IFR flight in actual can be a good thing. In fact I took
such a flight during my primary training as it was a wonderful learning
experience. There are good times to do it and bad times to do it. I do
not think it's necessary to take a primary student down to minimums in
order to give him or her the experience of being in IMC. Saturday was
a very bad day to be doing this. That's my opinion.

If I seem particularly ****ed about this it is because this is the type
of thing that gives GA a black eye and could lead to the closing of an
airport. Believe me, HPN has had enough pressure on it before this.
This will only make it worse.

I'll lay off now. Thanks for listening.

The reason (why they went up) nags at me more than the cause (why they went
down). The latter is the NTSB's bailiwick. The former should be ours (as
pilots). I don't want to wait for the outcome of an investigation later
for the lesson I should be learning now.

And I am sickened over the fact that two pilots' precious lives were
lost...on a whim, it seems.



"Scott Moore" wrote in message
...
R.L. wrote:
Lets all admit that this accident was the confluence and outcome of
serial
misjudgments, just like the examples in the textbooks. Can anyone argue
that
good judgment ruled the day?

That flight had no business happening. That instructor had no business
taking a VFR primary student on a cross-country to Albany in Saturday's
weather and back practicing instrument approaches in really low IMC under

They are in IMC, or IMC develops at home while they are off. Instructor
offers
that he can fly in or out in IMC, so they can still do the day somewhere
else.
If the instructor is rated, thats perfectly ok. If he wasn't, and the
field
was IFR, then you have a case.

The rest of this speculation and horse**** is deleted. These people are
dead.
They are not going to get undead anytime soon, so they can wait for a
proper
investigation. You can't ? Tough.

"Scott Moore" wrote in message
...
People
ride motorcycles, which are far more likely to get you killed, and
think nothing of it.


Actually the accident fatality rate is about the same for motorcycles and
GA. Since I do both .. I guess it doubles my chance of biting the big one.