Best Overall Motorglider available today?

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 3:47:32 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 1:48:13 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Didn't want to hijack the current FES tread so I thought I'd start a new one.
This topic came up over dinner a couple of weeks ago.

When you add all the following into a pot and stir, whats the "Best"
Say for Western Great Basin flying.

I think it may be the Carat, but I don't know much about it.
CX thinks its the DG 800 series, but all I know is since he bought that thing its been a endless battle to keep it running. But it does climb well.

FACTORS

Reliability
Maintenance required to keep it running
XC flyability, performance and control feel
Storability
Rigging
Initial cost
High density climb performance
Range
Cockpit layout and seating
Parts availability
Insurance cost
Landing gear complexity
Overall quality
Nick
T
Value and performance for the price- DG-400
UH

As a former owner of a DG400 I can assertively say that it flunks miserably on:
1. Parts availability (no parts available for the engine)
2. Landing gear complexity (had the gear do an uncommanded retraction)
3. High-density climb performance

On 9/15/20 7:24 PM, Nick Kennedy wrote:

The DG 400 is too but I've read engine parts are hard to come by these days, but they do trade hands for 60-65K.

Parts are hard to come by, and they shake themselves off the engine as
it's mounted up on the mast. We're well beyond that now.

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 4:59:35 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
Stemme.Â* Except for acquisition cost...

On 9/15/2020 12:34 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 2:28:37 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Something thats available used this year maybe
Not pie in the sky vaporware
Perhaps 2G's 26?

--
Dan, 5J

What about the 'poor man's version' of the Stemme, the Pipistrel Taurus? I am not sure what the deal is reg. the Rotax 503, which according to the Rotax website is no longer in production but they are advertising an E-version.. Side-by-sides rock! ;-)

Uli
'AS'

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 7:50:57 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 4:59:35 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
Stemme.Â* Except for acquisition cost...

On 9/15/2020 12:34 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 2:28:37 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Something thats available used this year maybe
Not pie in the sky vaporware
Perhaps 2G's 26?

--
Dan, 5J

What about the 'poor man's version' of the Stemme, the Pipistrel Taurus? I am not sure what the deal is reg. the Rotax 503, which according to the Rotax website is no longer in production but they are advertising an E-version. Side-by-sides rock! ;-)

Uli
'AS'

Pipistrel made a life-time buy of engines, and I assume parts, from Rotax when they introduced the Taurus.

Tom

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 7:56:12 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 7:50:57 PM UTC-7, AS wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 4:59:35 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
Stemme. Except for acquisition cost...

On 9/15/2020 12:34 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 2:28:37 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Something thats available used this year maybe
Not pie in the sky vaporware
Perhaps 2G's 26?

--
Dan, 5J

What about the 'poor man's version' of the Stemme, the Pipistrel Taurus? I am not sure what the deal is reg. the Rotax 503, which according to the Rotax website is no longer in production but they are advertising an E-version. Side-by-sides rock! ;-)

Uli
'AS'
Pipistrel made a life-time buy of engines, and I assume parts, from Rotax when they introduced the Taurus.

Tom
Hi Nick -
I only know what I know, and that's limited, and subject to my opinion. The gas powered Taurus didn't perform well enough at 6,000 foot atlitude (Parowan) so at least one owner decided to keep flying at Sea Level and skip Parowan. The 2 cycle Solo engine on the DG-800's shake a lot and require an owner that is pretty savy about maintaining them and doing engine work. There is a lot more that an owner can do on the Solo engine than hte rotary engine installations without resorting to experts. The 26E is very smooth running and doesn't shake AT ALL! I think the rotary engine is much more reliable than the Solo, but when something really goes wrong, a lot of owners (including me) end up running to Rex at Williams for help. Rex now can pull the rotary engine apart and do work on it, but until recently, the engine used to have to go back to Austria for repair...and it's EXPENSIVE for a new engine. I've been very fortunate, that in 19 years with the ASH-26E, I have only broken a drive belt. Changing a drive belt requires engine removal and quite a bit of disassembly. Fortunately for me, it was at Parowan, and the Schleicher Factory "engine guy" (Mario Link) was there at Parowan and volunteered to change my belt along with Holgar Weitzel (sp?). I have had only VERY minor maintenance issues otherwise. There are excellent user groups for DG's and Schleichers (thank you Eric Greenwell and Jim Herd).
With towplanes getting more rare, unfortunately more of us need to move to motorgliders. There are lot's of advantages and lots of disadvantages with motorgliders!
Buying tows is MUCH cheaper than maintaining a motorglider. I'm sure you've read Eric Greenwells' excellent Motorglider publications available for FREE on www.motorglider.org (see publications).
It sure is nice though, when the line for aero tows is an hour long, to decide that.....Oh, I think I will take-off, let's see oh,.............RIGHT NOW!!!!! And off you go.
I also have my Phoenix, and love it dearly, but it is a LOW performance glider capable of great flights, but it's just not in the same league with the high performance sailplanes.
Best wishes.
Russ

Thoughts on the Pipistrel Sinus?

Nick Kennedy wrote on 9/15/2020 11:28 AM:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 12:19:11 PM UTC-6, Dan Daly wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 1:48:13 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Didn't want to hijack the current FES tread so I thought I'd start a new one.
This topic came up over dinner a couple of weeks ago.

When you add all the following into a pot and stir, whats the "Best"
Say for Western Great Basin flying.

I think it may be the Carat, but I don't know much about it.
CX thinks its the DG 800 series, but all I know is since he bought that thing its been a endless battle to keep it running. But it does climb well.

FACTORS

Reliability
Maintenance required to keep it running
XC flyability, performance and control feel
Storability
Rigging
Initial cost
High density climb performance
Range
Cockpit layout and seating
Parts availability
Insurance cost
Landing gear complexity
Overall quality
Something thats available used this year maybe

"Something thats available used this year maybe
Not pie in the sky vaporware"

That helps narrow the field a bit, but what we really need to know mo

-What kind of flying do you intend - recreational, contests, badges, records,
safaris (assisted/unassisted)?

-what is your price limit?

-Are you able and willing to maintain it yourself?


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 6:22:28 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Nick Kennedy wrote on 9/15/2020 11:28 AM:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 12:19:11 PM UTC-6, Dan Daly wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 1:48:13 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Didn't want to hijack the current FES tread so I thought I'd start a new one.
This topic came up over dinner a couple of weeks ago.

When you add all the following into a pot and stir, whats the "Best"
Say for Western Great Basin flying.

I think it may be the Carat, but I don't know much about it.
CX thinks its the DG 800 series, but all I know is since he bought that thing its been a endless battle to keep it running. But it does climb well.

FACTORS

Reliability
Maintenance required to keep it running
XC flyability, performance and control feel
Storability
Rigging
Initial cost
High density climb performance
Range
Cockpit layout and seating
Parts availability
Insurance cost
Landing gear complexity
Overall quality
Something thats available used this year maybe

"Something thats available used this year maybe
Not pie in the sky vaporware"
That helps narrow the field a bit, but what we really need to know mo

-What kind of flying do you intend - recreational, contests, badges, records,
safaris (assisted/unassisted)?

-what is your price limit?

-Are you able and willing to maintain it yourself?


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


I owned a DG400 for a few years, found it to be an excellent performing sailplane , the landing gear was perfectly fine, the engine faultless, and it was great fun to fly. I never needed any engine parts, but no doubt over time I would have. I now own a Sinus Flex. A lot of fun but way too low soaring performance unless you let the engine idle, but then that is not what soaring is about. I agree that the Stemme is too big, too complicated, too expensive, etc.

What we need is for a company to build a Sinus, or a Phoenix, or a Katana or any of those similar touring motorgliders with a 4 piece wing that has a 19 or 20 meter span. The outer tips need to come off easily (like my SInus Flex) but when removed the span would be 39 feet so it goes in any hangar. With more than a 15 meter span the soaring performance would likely be close to 40/1 L/D. The 4 stroke Rotax engines are really great, the cost could hardly increase very much, and it would be in the perfect sailplane sweet spot.

The Virus/Sinus are low performance and the view out when thermal
turning is appallingly bad.

The bubble canopy Taurus is better and in strong conditions seems to
go quite well, plus it has a Rotax engine not that heap of junk Solo
found in DG800x & others. You'd struggle to call it high performance.

The DG400 has the usual DG self collapsing U/C feature. Once you
know about this design triumph it's easy to keep the U/C in working
order. It's nice to fly and has really good performance in strong
conditions; the view out is excellent. The engine parts (at least in EASA
land) are not a problem and it's a Rotax not a Solo and it doesn't
regularly break its drive belt. The gel coat/finish is excellent, as usual

with DG. Dealing with DG as a company was a joy. The engine
management man/machine interface is very last century; if you have
three arms you will have no problem, it's nearly as bad as many current
turbo/self-launch gliders: plenty of scope for finger/brain malfunction.
The 400 wing section does NOT like rain or bugs. One of the four
Hoteliers (flaperons & air-brakes) is a tricky blind fiddle to fix &
secure.
Vibration related failures are a known issue: that said my "400" was
significantly more reliable than my much newer Solo powered DG808C
or my Antares 20E.

My choice would be a DG800A (basically a 400 type fuselage/Rotax
engine + DG800 type wings). It doesn't like rain or bugs either but is
significantly better than the DG400 as a glider.

I think all newer DG800x have a vastly improved "one-switch does it
all" engine management system that really is very good?

I've got lots of hours in someone else's Stemme S10, the Limbach
engined one, it was very reliable but the VP propellor overhaul costs
were eye watering even 20 years ago. It's a very competent glider but
big and heavy, not at its best scraping low on the rocks.

I can't think of anything polite to say about Wankel engines... a
vibration free engineers nightmare?

If economics are at all an issue just buy a proper sailplane and get a
tow: it's a FAR FAR cheaper way to fly.

Pipistrelle Apis is a fun sport glider with maybe 40:1 at best LD- 50 kts. Goes well up to 80 kts. Engine used to be Rotax 447 which is bombproof but don't know anything about the new engine install. Really stout carbon construction with 121 kts vne. Light wing load with no ballast so you can get bounced around pretty good on strong days at high speed.

Comfortable cockpit and easy handling. Spring trim could be better. 10,000 hour airframe and 300 hour engine. In 10 years I have 40 hours on the engine, 400 hours on the airframe. Seems to handle the obligatory vibrations well. Pretty much trouble free so far.

Good price point.