Cessna Over DC -- NASA Form?

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote in message
...
I'm just saying that there need to be consequences, not that those
consequences have to come from the FAA.

It's not clear where else they could come from, though (except in terms of
embarrassment, as you mention). Accidentally busting an ADIZ is not a crime,
as far as I'm aware; the FBI has already announced that there are no
criminal charges to be pressed.

The reason people
violate the ADIZ and prohibited areas, and bust airspace, and run out of
fuel, is due to poor planning and/or judgment on the part of the pilots,

The reports so far suggest that the pilot did plan to avoid the ADIZ, so his
planning was not necessarily inadequate. Looks like he just got lost. What
was probably lacking was his navigational skill, though even that isn't
certain--being highly skilled makes elementary errors unlikely, but not
impossible.

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
...
"Mike Granby" wrote in message
oups.com...

If they file a NASA form, will it save their tickets?

According to the ASRS immunity policy
(http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/immunity_nf.htm), if they file ASRS forms in a
timely manner, and if their violation was inadvertent, and if they haven't
been found to have committed another FAR violation within the past five
years, then no civil penalty or certificate suspension can be imposed. (I
doubt that a student pilot flying with his CFI could be found to have
violated the FARs by getting lost, in any event.)

--Gary


Read 9 (c) (2) on your link. I would say that violating the airspace
constituted a lack of competency.

Mike
MU-2

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
news
Read 9 (c) (2) on your link. I would say that violating the airspace
constituted a lack of competency.

Almost any accidental violation that would be reported on an ASRS form shows
a failure of competency. Section 44709 allows the FAA to suspend or revoke a
pilot's license if a re-examination of the pilot shows that the pilot cannot
fly safely. But there's no provision under Section 44709 to take any
*punitive* action.

--Gary

Plus, 44709 only allows revocation if the pilot's action impacts "the
safety of air commerce or air transportation and the public interest".
These guys might have might have acted against the public interest, but
I can't see any argument that they've impacted commerce or transport
safety being sustainable.

"Mike Granby" wrote in message
oups.com...

Plus, 44709 only allows revocation if the pilot's action impacts "the
safety of air commerce or air transportation and the public interest".
These guys might have might have acted against the public interest, but
I can't see any argument that they've impacted commerce or transport
safety being sustainable.

I think one could argue that if they'd been shot down over DC, it would've
adversely affected the safety of people on the ground. But 44709 only
provides for suspension or revocation if the pilot is deemed unable to fly
safely in the *future*; it can't be a punishment for past failures. If the
pilots brush up their rusty navigation skills (and their familiarity with
ADIZ and intercept procedures), there's no reason to think they'd be
significantly more likely than other pilots to bust the ADIZ *again*.

http://straylight.law.cornell.edu/us...9----000-.html

--Gary

In article et, Mike Rapoport wrote:
Read 9 (c) (2) on your link. I would say that violating the airspace
constituted a lack of competency.

Almost anything a pilot may report on the ASRS form can constitute a
lack of competency though.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

Gary Drescher wrote:
"Mike Granby" wrote in message
oups.com...

If they file a NASA form, will it save their tickets?


According to the ASRS immunity policy
(http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/immunity_nf.htm), if they file ASRS forms in a
timely manner, and if their violation was inadvertent, and if they haven't
been found to have committed another FAR violation within the past five
years, then no civil penalty or certificate suspension can be imposed. (I
doubt that a student pilot flying with his CFI could be found to have
violated the FARs by getting lost, in any event.)

There is nothing that's going to stop them from at least a 30 day
suspension. There is NO way around this in the DC airspace
viloations (most of which don't cause the "sky is falling"
evacuation that attract news coverage).

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
Gary Drescher wrote:
According to the ASRS immunity policy
(http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/immunity_nf.htm), if they file ASRS forms in a
timely manner, and if their violation was inadvertent, and if they
haven't been found to have committed another FAR violation within the
past five years, then no civil penalty or certificate suspension can be
imposed. (I doubt that a student pilot flying with his CFI could be found
to have violated the FARs by getting lost, in any event.)

There is nothing that's going to stop them from at least a 30 day
suspension. There is NO way around this in the DC airspace
viloations (most of which don't cause the "sky is falling"
evacuation that attract news coverage).

See my reply to your same point elsewhere in this thread.

--Gary

"Mike Granby" wrote in message
oups.com

If they file a NASA form, will it save their tickets?

hmph

Nice try, though.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
____________________

Is it too naive to think that if they file, and some time passes, and the
story disappears from the headlines that they *might* get away without
punishment.

Hee hee

Of course, the best legal minds could be deployed and these guys would get
(deservedly) trashed.

"Mike Granby" wrote in message
oups.com...

If they file a NASA form, will it save their tickets?