Yet another media outlet gets it WRONG

Ugh... there ought to be a way to file a lawsuit against the media for
spreading false information like this.

Yeah, but what about suing the government when it spreads false
information?

On 25 May 2005 08:38:56 -0700, "Guy Elden Jr"
wrote in .com::

Woke up this morning (5/25/05) to hear this on WPLJ in NY (in reference
to the ADIZ incursion a couple weeks ago)...

- Rumsfeld had ordered the plane to be shot down, and they were
literally seconds away from doing so...


There's mention of Rumsfeld giving the order to shoot the little
Cessna down if necessary he http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7972808/

washingtonpost.com Highlights
Military was set to down Cessna
Authority granted as plane strayed deep into capital
Updated: 5:19 a.m. ET May 25, 2005

WASHINGTON - Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld gave military
officials the authority to shoot down, if necessary, a small plane
that wandered into restricted airspace over the nation's capital
May 11, according to two senior federal officials.

For 11 intense minutes, customs aircraft and military fighter jets
tried to intercept the Cessna 150 and determine whether the pilots
were confused and lost or were targeting Washington. Military
officials never deemed the aircraft to be hostile, but White House
and U.S. Capitol officials grew more concerned as it flew within
three miles of the executive mansion.

The plane, one of the federal officials said, came within "15 to
20 seconds" of being downed before its pilots finally heeded
repeated orders to turn away from the city.

The new details, also corroborated yesterday by a senior federal
law enforcement official briefed on events, came as U.S. military
and homeland security officials review the effectiveness of an air
defense system established for the Washington area after the 2001
terrorist attacks. The officials spoke on the condition of
anonymity because much of the air defense system is classified.

As authorities piece together the lessons of the scare --
described by some officials as the closest the government has come
to downing a civilian plane over Washington since Sept. 11, 2001
-- they are confronting sensitive issues involving split-second
decisions, communications and the federal chain of command.

Against a light aircraft moving at a relatively slow 100 mph, with
two evidently confused pilots, authorities were able to order the
evacuation of the White House and Capitol complex only two to
three minutes before the plane would have reached either. Outside
analysts said it remains unknown what might happen against a
larger, faster aircraft intending to evade defenders.

"The question is, if it were a faster plane . . . whether or not
the system would have been as responsive," said Rep. Bennie
Thompson (Miss.), senior Democrat on the Homeland Security
Committee.

Based on a Homeland Security Department chronology, it is unclear
whether jet fighters would have been in position to take action
against the Cessna before it reached the White House or Capitol.
The Cessna penetrated a 16-mile-radius no-fly zone at 11:50 a.m.;
F-16 fighters were scrambled from nearby Andrews Air Force Base
two minutes later.

The White House and Capitol were evacuated just after noon, as the
plane continued to approach. The fighters fired warning flares at
the Cessna at 12:04 p.m., and it was diverted.

Pentagon and Homeland Security officials have said the air defense
system worked effectively during the crisis. But in a statement
released Friday, the pilots said they had trouble communicating on
the radio frequency that a customs helicopter crew signaled for
them to use.

Officials from the Federal Aviation Administration and Customs and
Border Protection confirmed the communications problems cited by
the Cessna pilots, Hayden "Jim" Sheaffer, 69, and Troy Martin, 36,
both of Pennsylvania. The frequency was unavailable in that patch
of airspace, the officials said.
CONTINUED: Emergency locator beacon ...

Larry Dighera wrote in
:

Snipola
There's mention of Rumsfeld giving the order to shoot the little
Cessna down if necessary he http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7972808/

washingtonpost.com Highlights
Military was set to down Cessna
Authority granted as plane strayed deep into capital
Updated: 5:19 a.m. ET May 25, 2005


Snipola
Officials from the Federal Aviation Administration and Customs and
Border Protection confirmed the communications problems cited by
the Cessna pilots, Hayden "Jim" Sheaffer, 69, and Troy Martin, 36,
both of Pennsylvania. The frequency was unavailable in that patch
of airspace, the officials said.
Snipola

I'm sorry, but how can a frequency be "unavailable in that patch
of airspace"?!?! If the transmitter and the receiver can tune to
the frequency, it's available unless it's already in use or being
jammed.

It'll probably take the proverbial "act of congress" to get them
to admit they were giving them the wrong frequency, or they were
waiting on the wrong frequency.

If you ask me, the fact that the gov't screwed up in trying to
communicate to the errant aircraft indicates the system DID NOT
WORK. What if they had gone and shot the plane down, only later
to find they signaled them the wrong frequency? They'd be open to
a pretty big lawsuit, methinks. They need to shelf the idea of
shooting down little airplanes and seriously rethink their
strategy before somebody gets needlessly killed.

Hmmm...another thought...what if a learjet went zipping through
the DC ADIZ? It'd be long gone before the scardy-cats in DC could
even zip up their pants!!!

But that makes sense, and besides, what do I know?

BTW, I'm not defending the cessna pilots at all. Just pointing
out that mistakes have been made on BOTH sides.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism

Home of the Seismic FAQ
http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html

Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

On Thu, 26 May 2005 06:24:14 -0000, Skywise
wrote in
::

Larry Dighera wrote in
:
Snipola
Officials from the Federal Aviation Administration and Customs and
Border Protection confirmed the communications problems cited by
the Cessna pilots, Hayden "Jim" Sheaffer, 69, and Troy Martin, 36,
both of Pennsylvania. The frequency was unavailable in that patch
of airspace, the officials said.
Snipola

I'm sorry, but how can a frequency be "unavailable in that patch
of airspace"?!?! If the transmitter and the receiver can tune to
the frequency, it's available unless it's already in use or being
jammed.

Other reports have indicated that 121.5 MHz was in use by an
unidentified ELT signal at the time communications were attempted.

If you ask me, the fact that the gov't screwed up in trying to
communicate to the errant aircraft indicates the system DID NOT
WORK.

If our government is going to put pilots in their deadly cross hairs,
their policies must be infallible. This intercept policy is flawed,
as demonstrated by this incident.

[...]
They need to shelf the idea of
shooting down little airplanes and seriously rethink their
strategy before somebody gets needlessly killed.

That is blatantly obvious to me also.

Hmmm...another thought...what if a learjet went zipping through
the DC ADIZ? It'd be long gone before the scardy-cats in DC could
even zip up their pants!!!

Right. I believe the ADIZ was implemented to reduce radar clutter, so
that an intruding aircraft is more easily spotted; it can then be
dealt with by ground based fire. The effectiveness of such a security
policy is dubious at best, and pathetically ineffective in fact.

BTW, I'm not defending the cessna pilots at all. Just pointing
out that mistakes have been made on BOTH sides.


Right.

Skywise wrote:

I'm sorry, but how can a frequency be "unavailable in that patch
of airspace"?!?! If the transmitter and the receiver can tune to
the frequency, it's available unless it's already in use or being
jammed.

It was being jammed by an ELT.

George Patterson
"Naked" means you ain't got no clothes on; "nekkid" means you ain't got
no clothes on - and are up to somethin'.

Rumsfeld had ordered the plane to be shot down,
and they were literally seconds away from doing
so..

I suspect they felt that they had to say this.

I also would guess that they had no real intention of shooting it down,
especially after almost screwing up with the Kentucky governor's plane,
and because it was just a Cessna 150.

Imagine the political fallout if they shot down any innocent plane
whatsoever, especially if that caused more injuries on the ground.
After that, it would be even more difficult to do anything against a
non-obvious threat.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message

If our government is going to put pilots in their deadly cross hairs,
their policies must be infallible. This intercept policy is flawed,
as demonstrated by this incident.

How is it flawed? It worked. The plane was diverted, nobody was killed,
the media made a bunch of money and an idiot lost his certificate.

-c

On Thu, 26 May 2005 11:14:56 -0700, "gatt"
wrote in ::


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message

If our government is going to put pilots in their deadly cross hairs,
their policies must be infallible. This intercept policy is flawed,
as demonstrated by this incident.

How is it flawed?

It relies upon radio communications that are inherently unreliable.

It worked. The plane was diverted, nobody was killed,
the media made a bunch of money and an idiot lost his certificate.

That is true this time.

What if the C-150 had gotten close enough to the White House to
trigger ground fire as a result of its inability to communicate via
radio? Would you still characterize the policy as having worked?

Ron

I doubt they were close to being shot down. Years of experience in the
USAF and Air Defense Command where we protected the US from invaders.

Believe the release of possible shoot down is a sop to placate the
"great unwashed masses" and justify the enormous expense being spent
for our 'Air Defenses'.

Big John

On Wed, 25 May 2005 14:31:32 -0400, Ron Natalie
wrote:

Guy Elden Jr wrote:


- Rumsfeld had ordered the plane to be shot down, and they were
literally seconds away from doing so...

I don't know if Rumsfeld was in the loop, but they were very
close to being shutdown.

- The "CFI" had his "license" revoked...

No CFI, but even REC.AVIATORS who should no better have been making
this error right and left.

- The "student pilot" would not be charged...

Have you heard anything to the contrary?

Larry Dighera wrote in
:

Snipola
Other reports have indicated that 121.5 MHz was in use by an
unidentified ELT signal at the time communications were attempted.
Snipola

OK. That explains that. My question then is wouldn't the
Blackhawk crew have noticed the ELT signal on their radios?

I mean, if I tun my receiver to 121.5 and there's an ELT on
it, won't I know so?

Sorry if it's an obvious question...I'm still just an
armchair pilot.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism

Home of the Seismic FAQ
http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html

Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?