FLYING magazine safety article

My experience of the number of friends and aquaintences
killed in gliding accidents, compared to those lost
in road accidents, matches every one else's comments.
However it is worth remembering that whilst I will
almost certainly hear about anyone I have ever known
being killed in a glider, a road fatality to someone
I knew but didn't see regularly, may well never be
reported to me, so my perception that more people that
I know are killed in gliders than on the road may not
be entirely accurate.

Having said that I am, however, convinced that on a
fatalaties to hours ratio, flying gliders is much more
dangerous than driving.

At 23:48 11 June 2005, Bob Whelan wrote:
...
Eric Greenwell wrote...
Stewart Kissel wrote:
One thing that has always bothered me with comparing
the fatality rate of autos to gliders is....with
autos,
you got a pretty good chance of getting killed by
another
driver. In gliders, you are almost always responsible
for your own death. So I am not sure how valid the
accident comparison rate is between the two.

My interpretation is this: I've known (met, flown
with, talked to,
corresponded with, not just heard their name) ten
or more glider pilots
killed in glider accidents, but none that were killed
in a car accident
on their way to or from the airport; for that matter,
I can think of
only one pilot I knew that was killed in a car accident
anywhere.

For the record, my take is this. Anytime you go faster
than you're willing
to hit a brick wall, or higher than you're willing
to fall, you're opting
for life-threatening risks. For me, driving obviously
qualifies as the
former, and arguably as the latter if I manage to go
off a bridge or the
side of a mountain/mesa. Soaring obviously qualifies
as both each time I do
it.

Consequently each time I indulge in either I try to
maintain an active
awareness that each activity involves energies high
enough to easily kill
me. Personally, driving makes me more uneasy than
soaring for the reason
Stewart noted: many of the actively-life-threatening
risks are beyond my
direct control. Yet paradoxically, my driving-/soaring-acquaintan
ce 'death
stats' mirror Eric's (and Bruno Gantenbrink's) experiences.
Arguing about
(as distinct from discussing) 'which activity is safer'
strikes me as an
exercise in futility, because one can 'prove' whatever
they want and thus
it's an unending argument (well, at least until I die,
ha ha).

Acting with constant awareness that each activity contains
immediate
potential to suddenly kill me, combined with training,
continuing education
and good judgement is the best I can do. I've difficulty
imagining living
life without indulging in either activity, so that's
how I attempt to
control the risks of both (and any other activity I
must - or choose to -
indulge in). Makes sense to me!

Weenily,
Bob - still has all his fingers - Whelan

Just imagine how much safer the roads would be if every driver had to
have 40 hours before being turned loose, and had to pass a biennial
driving review!

Eric Greenwell wrote:

The average is around 12,000 miles per year in the USA. At 50 mph,
that's 240 hours; at 30, that's only 400 hours. Still more than the
usual glider pilot, but nothing like 600-1000.



Eric, when you're caught in L.A. traffic, you average speed drops very
quickly...and many opt for the 45 minute (each way) commute, so the
commute to work adds up to 360 hours on its own...

I believe I've lost more freinds in aircraft accidents than auto
accidents. However, I believe I know FAR more people who've been
INVOLVED in auto accidents that have never been in an AIRCRAFT accident
(myself included). Having an uninsured teen slam into the back of my
car with a good 30+ mph closing velocity really rattled my cage. I
have a scar from a motorcycle accident. I've had elderly drivers clip
me from multiple directions. Yes, I'll admit that two of my auto
accidents are arguably my fault. I hope to never have an aircraft
accident.

What many of us are forgetting here is the old adage that like the sea,
the air is terribly unforgiving of mistakes and carelessness. Much
less tolerant than the (typically) lower speed accidents we experience
in more modern and safe (airbags) autos (drive by shootings excepted,
yeah, I live in L.A.).

As such, with greater risk, we take more action to mitigate or control
the risk. More recurrent training (I do much more than just a BFR).
When it comes to FLIGHT TEST, where we intentionally do stupid things
to prove the aircraft is tolerant of some degree of mishandling, we
examine the hazard, the cause of the hazard and do our best to stack
the deck in our favor. Not really controlling the risk, but managing
it and operating at the right level.

My most recent personal example? Yeah, I'm IFR current, yeah, the
airplane could handle rough air, clouds, etc. When Flight Service said
there was a chance for rhime ice above 5,000 feet, I opted to drive.
So I traded one risk for another (well, some would say one flying risk
for about 50 driving risks).

The other slant on this argument is that the average non-flying person
knows one or two people that perished in auto accidents, but because
they're not pilots, they don't know anybody that's perished in an
aviation accident. Avaition is a smaller, closer community than
"drivers" and non-flyers, so statistically, we're more likely to know
that person killed in an accident.

Last August/September was really hard for me: I lost two friends in a
midair and a week later, a co-worker and her husband perished on the
northeast end of the Grand Canyon.

Fly safely folks. Operate at the right risk level.

-Pete
#309

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
Bill Daniels wrote:


The thing these driving vs. flying safety discussions seem to miss is
that
the average person drives 600 to 1000 hours per year whereas pilots fly
less
than 100.

The average is around 12,000 miles per year in the USA. At 50 mph,
that's 240 hours; at 30, that's only 400 hours. Still more than the
usual glider pilot, but nothing like 600-1000.

Drivers are usually pretty good, or at least good enough to
survive simply because they practice it enough to be current whereas
pilots
are often pretty rusty each time they fly. If we flew gliders as much
as we
drive, the accident rate per hour would probably be much better than it
is.

I agree, but the accidents per year would likely increase, and that is
what we go by: "number killed over the years".


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly


I don't know anybody that drives less than 12000 miles per year. The only
year I drove less (10,000 miles) was when I worked out of a home office and
did no commuting. A quick check of odometers and vehicle age showed closer
to 22, 000 miles per year for my acquaintances. Those vehicles showed
evidence of road encounters too.

I'm not at all sure the number of accident would increase if we flew more.
The full-time glider pilots I know fly year in and out with no incidents
much less accidents. Flying a glider safely isn't hard, it just takes
training, experience, unrelenting alertness and a commitment to become the
best pilot possible.

Most of the accidents I know about happened to the "fly-one-week-a-year"
pilots who, if asked, would say that they "completed" their flight training
X years ago and feel no need to submit to additional training. No pilots
flight training is ever completed - there's always more to learn.

I may be a statistical anomaly but, in over four decades of driving and
flying, I know a LOT more people that died in cars than gliders - by about a
10:1 ratio. Five of my high school classmates died within a year of
graduation in car accidents. Eight of my college classmates died before
graduation. Seat belts and air bags have reduced the number of fatalities
but now those unfortunates wind up in wheel chairs.

Bill Daniels

309 wrote:

Just imagine how much safer the roads would be if every driver had to
have 40 hours before being turned loose, and had to pass a biennial
driving review!

Here in Colorado, in order to secure a drivers license at 16, 50 hours of
dual, with parent or guardian, must be logged. Currently the driver is
restricted from driving between midnight and 5am. Commencing July 1st of
this year, a young person must have held a permit for a minimum of 12
months prior to getting a drivers license. After getting the license, they
will only be permitted one minor passenger during the first 12 months,
restricted to a family member only for the first six months.

FWIW, I'm married to a driving instructor (here in CO they also can give the
drive tests). She opens the morning paper with some trepidition daily.

Frank Whiteley

Bill Daniels wrote:

I'm not at all sure the number of accident would increase if we flew
more. The full-time glider pilots I know fly year in and out with no
incidents much less accidents. Flying a glider safely isn't hard, it
just takes training, experience, unrelenting alertness and a
commitment to become the best pilot possible.

Nonetheless, the pilots I'm thinking of are not the 50 hour a year
pilots, but people like Clem Bowman, Peter Masak, Klaus Holighaus,
Helmut Reichmann.


Most of the accidents I know about happened to the
"fly-one-week-a-year" pilots who, if asked, would say that they
"completed" their flight training X years ago and feel no need to
submit to additional training. No pilots flight training is ever
completed - there's always more to learn.

I agree with the need to continue learning.

I may be a statistical anomaly but, in over four decades of driving
and flying, I know a LOT more people that died in cars than gliders -
by about a 10:1 ratio.

Five of my high school classmates died within a year of graduation in
car accidents. Eight of my college classmates died before
graduation. Seat belts and air bags have reduced the number of
fatalities but now those unfortunates wind up in wheel chairs.

But you are now considering "everyone", not just glider pilots. I think
we are talking only of glider pilots, and whether it's cars or gliders
that kills them. If we include everyone we know, your experience is
probably common, because we know a lot more people that aren't glider
pilots.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Know the risks, minimize the risks, practice throughout the year --
virtually when necessary -- and soar.

-----------------

For Those Who Fly

Do not shed a tear for me
For I would not for you
Instead just drink a beer for me
And know well that I knew

Dreams of flight do not come free
There comes attached a price
And we do not do it blindly
We know we roll the dice

Before you sail into the sky
A sky slow to forgive
Answer am I afraid to die
Or just afraid to live

So if you try to reason why
When fate can seem unjust
We take these risks not to escape life
But to stop life escaping us.

- Dr. James Freeman

===================


Jack

"Jack" wrote in message
...
Know the risks, minimize the risks, practice throughout the year --
virtually when necessary -- and soar.

-----------------

For Those Who Fly

Do not shed a tear for me
For I would not for you
Instead just drink a beer for me
And know well that I knew

Dreams of flight do not come free
There comes attached a price
And we do not do it blindly
We know we roll the dice

Before you sail into the sky
A sky slow to forgive
Answer am I afraid to die
Or just afraid to live

So if you try to reason why
When fate can seem unjust
We take these risks not to escape life
But to stop life escaping us.

- Dr. James Freeman

===================


Jack

The greatest tragedy is to grow old having missed the opportunity to fly.

Bill Daniels

F.L. Whiteley wrote:

Here in Colorado, in order to secure a drivers license at 16, 50 hours of
dual, with parent or guardian, must be logged. Currently the driver is
restricted from driving between midnight and 5am. Commencing July 1st of
this year, a young person must have held a permit for a minimum of 12
months prior to getting a drivers license. After getting the license, they
will only be permitted one minor passenger during the first 12 months,
restricted to a family member only for the first six months.


Yes, it's that way in California, too. And they drive sensably until
they have the ticket, and then the teens go like maniacs. I happen to
remember being a teen a long, long time ago...in Chicago. Having been
a step-parent conducting some of that 50+ hours, I'm ashamed I didn't
learn more about the art of teaching...

Still: NO Biennial _Driver_ Review required...witness the
eighty-something man who plowed through Farmers' Market in Santa
Monica, killng 10, injuring 25. I've heard of some elderly but
competent pilots who've voluntarily chosen not to fly anymore. I hope
I am fortunate enough to live so long, and be graced with good
judgement to know when I need to hang it up (kneeboard and/or car
keys).

Pete

309 wrote:



F.L. Whiteley wrote:

Here in Colorado, in order to secure a drivers license at 16, 50 hours of
dual, with parent or guardian, must be logged. Currently the driver is
restricted from driving between midnight and 5am. Commencing July 1st of
this year, a young person must have held a permit for a minimum of 12
months prior to getting a drivers license. After getting the license,
they will only be permitted one minor passenger during the first 12
months, restricted to a family member only for the first six months.


Yes, it's that way in California, too. And they drive sensably until
they have the ticket, and then the teens go like maniacs. I happen to
remember being a teen a long, long time ago...in Chicago. Having been
a step-parent conducting some of that 50+ hours, I'm ashamed I didn't
learn more about the art of teaching...

Still: NO Biennial _Driver_ Review required...witness the
eighty-something man who plowed through Farmers' Market in Santa
Monica, killng 10, injuring 25. I've heard of some elderly but
competent pilots who've voluntarily chosen not to fly anymore. I hope
I am fortunate enough to live so long, and be graced with good
judgement to know when I need to hang it up (kneeboard and/or car
keys).

Pete

Fair points.

Couple of unfortunate accidents in US soaring today at two ends of the
spectrum:

17 year old fatal in WA
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/...ider%2 0Fatal


81 year old in trees in OH
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4598934/detail.html

Frank

You guys are on a roll, here!

Please tell me, what on Earth does the relative accident rates of
driving vs. flying have to do with making gliding safer? In other
words, who cares?

Focus your intellectual energies on something that will make a
difference. Like telling a friend/acquaintance/stranger that they need
dual instruction after witnessing poor flying habits.

When flying, unlike driving, there is no cop up there that will pull
you over and write you up.

Flying becomes dangerous when you fly TOO LITTLE, not TOO MUCH!

Tom