"position & hold" going away

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

The one's I've flown take maybe 20-30 seconds. So, you just lead them a
little more while the landing airplane is rolling out.


Lead them a little more? You mean delay the takeoff clearance a little
more, don't you?



I don't think this is any less safe then P&H.


The problem with P&H is not in holding aircraft on a runway, it's in
clearing other aircraft to land while aircraft are holding in position on
the runway. The solution is simple; stop clearing aircraft to land when
aircraft are holding in position.

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 21:40:25 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

A lot of time? I don't see it. Unless the hold line is way back from the
runway, I can typically taxi onto the active and be rolling at full
throttle in 10 seconds or less. All they need to do is clear me for
takeoff when the airplane that just landed is 10 seconds or so from
clearing the runway and no time at all will be lost.


How long do you think it takes a heavy to do the same?

A DC-9 isn't a heavy, but I was on one at Philli International who was
bringing up the power during the turn onto the runway. We could hear
the tire squeal inside the plane. Still, I'd probably be able to get
out there and rolling sooner than he could. OTOH he could be "way up
there" while I'm just leaving the pattern.

I've always found it a bit intimidating to be taxiing behind something
I could taxi under, particularly with the knowledge there is another
big one right behind that I hope doesn't forget I'm there.

Several times I've been looking at a quarter mile, or longer, line of
planes ahead and heard, Thirty Three Romeo, turn on next taxiway, hold
short for departing traffic. Expect intersection departure. When they
said cleared for departure it had the word "expedite" in there. (Do
they still do that? Intersection take offs mixing with the big guys.
I haven't been into one of the really busy airports in over 6 or 7
years.)

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 01:47:29 -0400, Roger
wrote:

Several times I've been looking at a quarter mile, or longer, line of
planes ahead and heard, Thirty Three Romeo, turn on next taxiway, hold
short for departing traffic. Expect intersection departure. When they
said cleared for departure it had the word "expedite" in there. (Do
they still do that? Intersection take offs mixing with the big guys.
I haven't been into one of the really busy airports in over 6 or 7
years.)

I was leaving KIAD once in the 172 and got an intersection departure
from Y (or maybe Z, but I think Y) from 30, skipping ahead of a jet or
two that was back at the threshold.

aw

"Roger" wrote

Several times I've been looking at a quarter mile, or longer, line of
planes ahead and heard, Thirty Three Romeo, turn on next taxiway, hold
short for departing traffic. Expect intersection departure. When they
said cleared for departure it had the word "expedite" in there. (Do
they still do that?

So they let you jump line, so you could get off quicker? Cool!
--
Jim in NC

It's not going away for everybody. Selected airports may lose it.
You'll never see the major airports lose it.



Matt Whiting wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:

That's hard to believe. P&H really saves a lot of time when the runway
is really busy. The only way I can see this working is if pilot learn
how to do "cleared for immediate takeoff". Most controllers avoid this
because "immediate" for many pilots means sitting on the runway while
they go through their last checklist.


A lot of time? I don't see it. Unless the hold line is way back from
the runway, I can typically taxi onto the active and be rolling at full
throttle in 10 seconds or less. All they need to do is clear me for
takeoff when the airplane that just landed is 10 seconds or so from
clearing the runway and no time at all will be lost.

Matt

Something I heard on the radio a few months ago while overflying KCMA:

PLANE: Camarillo Tower, Cessna 123 at runway... uh... twenty six.
TOWER: Cessna 123, say your intentions.
PLANE: I'd like to take off.
TOWER: Cessna 123, position and hold, runway two six.
PLANE: Um, I'm at runway two six.
TOWER: Roger, position and hold on runway two six.
PLANE: Well, my position is runway two six, and I don't understand what
you mean.
TOWER: Confirm, Cessna 123, you're at runway two six and you're NOT on
the runway?
PLANE: Yeah, and I'm holding my position here.
TOWER: Drive onto the runway and hold your position, Cessna 123.
PLANE: (pilot keys transmit button, but there's a long silence as he
tries to wrap his head around the instruction
until.....................huh?
TOWER: (pause, teeth gnashing sounds inserted by my imagination.)
Cessna 123, cleared for takeoff, runway two six.
PLANE: Cleared for takeoff, Cessna 123......(five second pause, then he
keys up again).....oh, and I'm departing to the right.

Sometimes, I think that radio conversations like this are staged for
the benefit of making nearby student pilots feel better about their
radio work.

"Ben Hallert" wrote

Sometimes, I think that radio conversations like this are staged for
the benefit of making nearby student pilots feel better about their
radio work.

Nah, there are really people out there taking lessons that are *that*
clueless. I've heard quite a few conversations that bad, and worse. Some
of them end up being requested to call the tower. Some of them are told on
air that they are getting violated, and a number to call.

I often wonder how many of these end up getting their ticket. More of them
than should, I suppose. Sigh.
--
Jim in NC

"Ben Hallert" wrote in message
ups.com...

Something I heard on the radio a few months ago while overflying KCMA:

PLANE: Camarillo Tower, Cessna 123 at runway... uh... twenty six.
TOWER: Cessna 123, say your intentions.
PLANE: I'd like to take off.
TOWER: Cessna 123, position and hold, runway two six.
PLANE: Um, I'm at runway two six.
TOWER: Roger, position and hold on runway two six.
PLANE: Well, my position is runway two six, and I don't understand what
you mean.
TOWER: Confirm, Cessna 123, you're at runway two six and you're NOT on
the runway?
PLANE: Yeah, and I'm holding my position here.
TOWER: Drive onto the runway and hold your position, Cessna 123.
PLANE: (pilot keys transmit button, but there's a long silence as he
tries to wrap his head around the instruction
until.....................huh?
TOWER: (pause, teeth gnashing sounds inserted by my imagination.)
Cessna 123, cleared for takeoff, runway two six.
PLANE: Cleared for takeoff, Cessna 123......(five second pause, then he
keys up again).....oh, and I'm departing to the right.

Sometimes, I think that radio conversations like this are staged for
the benefit of making nearby student pilots feel better about their
radio work.


A couple of years ago the phrase "taxi into position and hold" was shortened
to "position and hold". I've noticed it's caused a bit of confusion even
among experienced pilots. It seems it's being interpreted as "hold your
position".

Must be nice...my Commander requires bringing power from idle to
takeoff in no less than 30 seconds. Some of the big radials have even
slower time limits.

Craig C.

"Can "is different than "do". Just hang out at your local airport and
watch the average GA drivers. You'd be amazed at the amount of time
people spend sitting on the runway.

-Robert