Question about training costs

Excuse me, but how do you get a PPC with ten hours of solo? Last I looked,
the FAA still required 20 dual, 20 solo.

Jim


"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
om...
Tolwyn wrote:
I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix
But I wanted to know what everyone thinks of these prices.
Private Pilot Course
8 Weeks long
Ground School (60 hrs)
40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S
10 Hours Solo 172R/S
1 Multimedia instruction kit
Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs)
2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride

$10,600.00

"RST Engineering" wrote:
Excuse me, but how do you get a PPC with ten
hours of solo? Last I looked, the FAA still required
20 dual, 20 solo.

How recently have you looked? The requirement (61.109) is:

"[...] a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an
airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40
hours of flight time that includes 20 hours of flight training from an
authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training [...]"

It will work, but if you can find a good instructor and a Cessna 152,
or even Cessna 172 or Piper Cherokee, I suspect you can do it for less.
Most pilots take more than 50 hours though. For private with aircraft
renting for 90 and instructor at 30 that is 120 x 50 = 6000 plus books,
checkride fee, medical and FAA test fee figure 7000. Now figure in both
cases you need an additonal 20 hours for a total of 70. You don't need
ground school, just study on your own and take a the FAA prep test
until you get 90 or better. Your instructor can answer any questions.
One nice thing about the arrangement you quoted, they usually have
their own DE and know what to expect and the failure rate on the
checkride is lower. If you are headed for pro pilot you do not want any
checkride failures, very important and worth a lot of money. I
recommend Sheble Aviation. They do a good job and don't mess around.
They get you there. www.shebleaviaton.com says their course with 45
hours of flight time is just under $5000. I am not affiliated with
them, but have got my Seaplane rating there.

unicate wrote:

Having worked at a flight school, 80 hours is *not* uncommon or unusual;
40 hours is possible, but is *not* the norm

It also depends on to what standards they teach. Are they happy to teach
you to the point to barely pass the checkride? Or do they want to make
you a safe pilot? Are they happy when you can somehow bring down the
plane on that 10'000 ft runway or do they expect a point landing where
you touch down within, say, 100 ft of the defined point each time? Do
they throw in a lesson of developed spin recovery and an introduction to
mountain flying? etc. etc.

Stefan

Ray wrote:
My point is that if a student starts training with the expectation that
it will take only 40 hours, he or she is likely to get frustrated
(possibly to the point of quitting) if it ends up taking a lot longer.
Also, if the student only budgets for 40 hours of flying, money could
become a factor towards the end of the training and that's never a good
thing.


I can accept the second part of your argument: that money could be a factor if
you budget for 40 hours and have no reserve. OTOH, budgeting for 80 hours for
something that is mandated to require only 40 hours is ridiculous. Don't you
have any personal standards for success?

Maybe I'm a dinosaur. The current PC crap I read in the paper a couple of weeks
ago about "deferred success" for young failing students made me want to puke.
Yes, it's all about feeling good about yourself, but how can one feel good about
yourself when you're a failure? (I'm not talking about you personally; I refer
to the general population.) Failure is supposed to make you feel bad; avoiding
that bad feeling about yourself is what is supposed to motivate one to succeed.

Employers don't give a rat's ass about whether you have self esteem or feel good
about yourself. They are interested in results. What a lesson that must be for
the current crop of young chaps.

Getting back to the average number of hours flown by students in your area: I
have to wonder if the reason the numbers are so high is because the FBO or
flight training program is greedy. There's no excuse I can see for why it takes
people twice as long to achieve what should be done in 40 hours or thereabouts.
If you flew as frequently as you say, you should have been on top of your game.
I consider your flight frequency ideal for a student. I just don't understand
your results. People have been earning private pilot's licenses in less than 50
hours literally for generations.

If it takes a lot longer, perhaps the student lacks aptitude and should quit.
Or maybe they ought to find a program that gets the job done without screwing
people.

I congratulate you on sticking it out.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

Stefan wrote:

It also depends on to what standards they teach. Are they happy to teach
you to the point to barely pass the checkride? Or do they want to make
you a safe pilot? Are they happy when you can somehow bring down the
plane on that 10'000 ft runway or do they expect a point landing where
you touch down within, say, 100 ft of the defined point each time? Do
they throw in a lesson of developed spin recovery and an introduction to
mountain flying? etc. etc.


You gotta be kidding me. I jad my checkride with a guy popularly known as "Col.
Goddamnit"... a retired USAF type who didn't suffer bad flying gracefully.
Trust me, I wasn't allowed to slide by the skin of my teeth. Nor was I unusual
in my area.

I was taught to make every landing a short field landing. That way, when
presented with a genuinely short field, it was no big deal; you didn't have to
do a thing differently. I was expected to touch down on the numbers,,, every
time. There was no "chop the throttle on the threshold" crap.

Stalls were expected to be full stalls. It didn't matter whether it was a light
single or a heavy twin. You might say it was getting ready to stall, but you
held the back pressure until it broke.

There's a lot of things that aren't taught today because the instructor is
afraid you'll kill him. Spins?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

BTIZ wrote:
Local flight school does complete Students in 40-45 hours.
They have to in order to keep the Air Force FIT contract.
If they can't follow the syllabus and the student cannot complete in 45
hours, the student is not qualified for Air Force pilot training.

They do get the ham fisted, or those that fly less than once per week
average.. that take 65-80 hours.



There you go. I knew I couldn't be the only one. Thanks for speaking up.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

unicate wrote:
How recently have you looked? The requirement (61.109) is:

"[...] a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an
airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40
hours of flight time that includes 20 hours of flight training from an
authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training [...]"


No wonder folks aren't comfortable going off on their own in less than 80 hours!

I have a buddy who has over 3000 hours including a couple of thousand of turbine
time; I doubt he has 300 PIC. He has a million excuses why he doesn't bid for a
captain's slot. I'd say a lack of confidence brought on by seldom being
responsible for his own survival is a big factor. He always has someone to tell
him what to do.

I've got almost 2700 hours now and I doubt I have more than 100 that *isn't*
PIC. Lack of confidence has never been one of my problems. Taking orders from
others is.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote:
Getting back to the average number of hours
flown by students in your area: I have to wonder
if the reason the numbers are so high is because
the FBO or flight training program is greedy. There's
no excuse I can see for why it takes people twice as
long to achieve what should be done in 40 hours or
thereabouts. If you flew as frequently as you say,
you should have been on top of your game.

"should be done in 40 hours"?? The FAA requirement of 40 hours is the
MINIMUM. If they felt the only people competent enough to be licensed
pilots are those who are able to get it all done in 40 hours, they would
have made it a requirement that people pass their checkrides in the
allotted 40 hours. That's not how it reads.

Part if it may indeed being the FBO or the CFI making more money, and if
a customer feels the CFI or the school is holding them back or padding
hours when they are ready to move forward, they need to speak up or take
their biz elsewhere.

But not everyone learns at the same rate. Some people simply take longer
to become proficient. If you're taking a little longer than most at some
element, the last thing you need is someone chiding you about how long
Mortimer Schnerd took to do it. Within reason, I couldn't care less how
long it took you or the next person; my only concern is MY OWN progress.
If it takes me a few hours longer than you or than "most people" to be
proficient, why should anyone have a problem with that?

If it takes a lot longer, perhaps the student lacks
aptitude and should quit.

Perhaps ... or perhaps they just don't learn at the usual rate. Should
those people automatically be judged (by whom? by someone who finished
in 40 hours?) as "lacking aptitude" and be made to feel they should quit
just because they aren't finished in the MINIMUM time required for the
training?

Or maybe they ought to find a program that gets the
job done without screwing people.

No doubt, there are schools and CFIs out there screwing people. But many
are providing competent service and not rushing people through the
training just to get it done in the MINIMUM number of hours required.

The other thing is people doing it for the Air Force are not doing it in
their spare time, are they? A lot of people doing flight training at the
FBOs are juggling work, school, and family around the flight training --
some can do it, but it's pretty hard to juggle all that and finish in
the MINIMUM number of required hours. No reason why anyone has to feel
like they "lack aptitude" or like they "should quit" just because
they've passed the 40- or 50-hr mark and don't have their license yet.
JMO, but that "hurry up, you're behind the MINIMUM" attitude isn't a
very productive one.

Here is what I came up for the hours you were quoted if you were taking
lessons here in Indiana. I don't know why anyone would need 60 hours of
ground school. I think that is total fluff on their part. I think I had
something like 5 hours total. Also the pre- and post-flight briefings
they quoted may be a little high. I counted on 1/2 hour per lesson for
both. IMHO it shouldn't take more then 15 minutes on both sides of the
flight for the briefings.

Ground School (60 hrs) What the hell do you need 60 hours of ground
school for?

40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S 40 * 90.00
40 * 35.00 = $5,000
10 Hours Solo 172R/S 10 * 90.00 = $ 900
1 Multimedia instruction kit $ 200
Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs) 24 * 35.00 $ 840
2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride $ 300
Total at my FBO $7,240

This falls into my standard range of $7-10k for getting your private.
What does Westwind do if you go over the 50 hours? I know it took me
more that 50 hours to get my private but I am brain damaged from too
much partying in the 70's :-)

Maybe Jay Beckman can pipe up about his experiences in Arizona.

Good luck. This advise is worth what you paid for it and YMMV

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ TYQ
Tolwyn wrote:

I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix
http://www.flywsa.com/

But I wanted to know what everyone thinks of these prices.
Private Pilot Course
8 Weeks long
Ground School (60 hrs)
40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S
10 Hours Solo 172R/S
1 Multimedia instruction kit
Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs)
2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride

$10,600.00

I've heard anywhere from $5-8000.00 for the private pilot license.
Is that just for the calculated hours, without adding in ground
school? The wet rate is $106/hr & flight instructor is $39/hr. (Damn
Oil Prices)

If I go the commercial route
Private Pilot $10,600
Instrument Rating $14,200
Multi-Engine & Single Engine Commercial Pilot Certificates $14,300
Airline Crew Orientation Program $2,800
Flight Instructor Certs (MEI, CFII & CFI) $11,800

332 Total Flight & Simulator Hours
47 Total Multi-Engine Hours

$53,700 Total

Just thought I'd check before making the investment.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. :-)