AND THE KIS CRUISER ROUNDS THE PYLON...

"...The wing loading makes for good IFR platform as well. ..."
How is wing loading related to IFR?



A plane with very light wing loading tends to be more affected by turbulence
and will require more attention to flying.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

The only jig needed is for the wing. The upper and lower wing skins provided
with the kit already have the proper contour so its just a matter of making
a simple cradle by cutting a half dozen or so ribs from plywood with a
scroll saw to support the preformed skins. No riveting, drilling or bending
of metal. Just slather on some epoxy resin, pile on some sandbags to hold
things in place and go take a nap till the epoxy hardens.

See Bob Reed's message about Pulsar. There has been abominable factory
support in the past but they seem to be in the process of reorganizing.

There are a few of us that have completed a KIS Cruiser and love them. The
closest to MCW are probably mine in the Cleveland, OH area and a real beauty
in Mankato, MN. Neither of us needs much excuse to show you how it flies.

Dave Tate (KIS Cruiser with Lycoming O-360 and 260 hrs tt)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Folbrecht"
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.homebuilt
Sent: Friday, December 24, 2004 11:58 AM
Subject: AND THE KIS CRUISER ROUNDS THE PYLON...


Things I still want more info on:

- Exactly how hard is construction? I know jigs are needed - bummer.
I've been spoiled by thoughts of a nice, matched-hole metal RV kit.

- State of the company? I've heard they're for sale. You don't hear
much about Pulsar in general. Their 2-seaters do not seem to be
terribly popular.

That's about it. I figure that I know enough about how a Cruiser flies
without actually flying one, and after I've sampled the Velocity I'll
likely have enough info to make up my mind. I'm currently waiting for a
house to be completed (May) and would like to have whatever kit I decide
on to be arriving within a few weeks of move-in (giving me time to set
up shop).

Any thoughts are quite welcome. Thanks for reading.

~Paul Folbrecht
~PP-SEL
~C152 N89795
~MWC

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
...
My Mission:

- Real 4-place aircraft that can carry 4 adults with baggage and 3-hours
fuel.

- Cruise at least 150 KTAS at altitude.

- Must be a decent IFR platform - stable enough to fly hands-off in the
clouds for a few seconds at a time. Not a "fly it all the time" type
aircraft.

- Kit is reasonably priced at $35K, making my $85K flying cost doable.

- Has a reasonable history - a couple dozen flying, I believe, nothing
but positive reports on performance and stability.

You are sadly mistaken if you think that there is a four seater IFR platform
with 3 hours (really almost 4) of fuel flying 150 KTAS out there. Just
mentioning an airplane like the KIS Cruiser will make guys jump in and start
trying to sell you on it regardless of whether it can meet your needs or
not. Their objective, just like the others, is to get you to go with what
they are building. Later on you will find out that it really doesn't meet
your mission profile. In fact, your mission profile doesn't meet your
objectives above, especially the $85K sticker shock. If you are worried
about the cost of an exhaust valve on a 152, then you need to stick to RC
model airplanes, much less a non-existent four seater.

There are many guys out there that started building airplanes with good
intentions and found out that they just couldn't afford one or had the time
to build it. They are the vast majority in fact. You either need to face
reality now or get ready to face it in a few years when you're selling off
your uncompleted project.

BTW, a decent IFR platform isn't just a stable airplane that can be flown
hands off for a few seconds. It involves an instrument package that is
going to cost you more than you think.

Clyde Torres

You are sadly mistaken if you think that there is a four seater IFR platform
with 3 hours (really almost 4) of fuel flying 150 KTAS out there. Just

Well, I suppose, then, that the RV-10 and Velocity XL do not actually
exist. Or that their designers GREATLY exaggerate their performance
figures. Or that, based on your definition of an IFR platform (I can
only imagine), they don't qualify.

mentioning an airplane like the KIS Cruiser will make guys jump in and start
trying to sell you on it regardless of whether it can meet your needs or
not. Their objective, just like the others, is to get you to go with what
they are building. Later on you will find out that it really doesn't meet
your mission profile. In fact, your mission profile doesn't meet your

A devious, devious, bunch, to be sure. I hear many of them sell their
own children to finance their aircraft.

objectives above, especially the $85K sticker shock. If you are worried
about the cost of an exhaust valve on a 152, then you need to stick to RC
model airplanes, much less a non-existent four seater.

You think it makes sense that an exhaust valve costs $250? You think
that is perfectly reasonable and logical?

Having to replace all the valves, unexpectedly, isn't something I
relished, but most certainly something I was capable of covering. Yes,
that's aviation. Actually, I fly much _less_ airplane than I can afford.

There are many guys out there that started building airplanes with good
intentions and found out that they just couldn't afford one or had the time
to build it. They are the vast majority in fact. You either need to face
reality now or get ready to face it in a few years when you're selling off
your uncompleted project.

You need to see a therapist and get to the bottom of your pessimistic,
antisocial attitude. You live for this type of thing, don't you?

BTW, a decent IFR platform isn't just a stable airplane that can be flown
hands off for a few seconds. It involves an instrument package that is
going to cost you more than you think.

Oh, yes, you're right, I have not an inkling. I've done no research
whatsoever. The figure of $20,000 for a decent panel that I mentioned
is completely off the wall. Even though the entirely usable, real-world
IFR panel I have in my Cessna 152 (dual King nav/coms, one with GS,
Garmin 340 w/markers, VFR GPS), right now, cost half of that.

Merry Christmas!

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
...
You are sadly mistaken if you think that there is a four seater IFR
platform
with 3 hours (really almost 4) of fuel flying 150 KTAS out there. Just

Well, I suppose, then, that the RV-10 and Velocity XL do not actually
exist. Or that their designers GREATLY exaggerate their performance
figures. Or that, based on your definition of an IFR platform (I can
only imagine), they don't qualify.

For $85K you are dreaming.

Clyde Torres

I know you can't get an RV-10 for $85K. Used engine, and bare min VFR
panel, maybe. Neither can you get an IFR Velocity XL for that. But I
think you can build an IFR Velocity SE or KIS Cruiser for that amount,
fixed-pitch prop, new engine.

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
...

You are sadly mistaken if you think that there is a four seater IFR

platform

with 3 hours (really almost 4) of fuel flying 150 KTAS out there. Just

Well, I suppose, then, that the RV-10 and Velocity XL do not actually
exist. Or that their designers GREATLY exaggerate their performance
figures. Or that, based on your definition of an IFR platform (I can
only imagine), they don't qualify.


For $85K you are dreaming.

Clyde Torres

Paul, apologies accepted on the other email.

My point is, though, that $85K is a low number for a true four seater IFR
platform that performs the way you want it to. The numbers I've seen are
way up in the $135K range. Every bird I've seen that used an O-360/O-320
and had four seats was not really a four seater capable of carrying four
people comfortably with some bags and enough fuel to fly four hours. You
need a bigger airframe and a bigger engine, thus driving the costs up.
Every person that has done this analysis before you either gave up or
settled for a two person airplane that has four seats. Many of these
aircraft are wonderful aircraft - better than production models. They will
haul two people very comfortably with plenty of room for fuel and bags, but
as soon as you put two people in the back, you are very limited in what you
can carry.

Clyde


"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
...
I know you can't get an RV-10 for $85K. Used engine, and bare min VFR
panel, maybe. Neither can you get an IFR Velocity XL for that. But I
think you can build an IFR Velocity SE or KIS Cruiser for that amount,
fixed-pitch prop, new engine.

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
...

You are sadly mistaken if you think that there is a four seater IFR

platform

with 3 hours (really almost 4) of fuel flying 150 KTAS out there.
Just

Well, I suppose, then, that the RV-10 and Velocity XL do not actually
exist. Or that their designers GREATLY exaggerate their performance
figures. Or that, based on your definition of an IFR platform (I can
only imagine), they don't qualify.


For $85K you are dreaming.

Clyde Torres

Hey, pls accept my apology for the "personal" (though not serious)
comments in my previous reply to you. It was a bit stronger than it
needed to be, and on Christmas yet. I'm bad.

Clyde Torres wrote:

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
...

You are sadly mistaken if you think that there is a four seater IFR

platform

with 3 hours (really almost 4) of fuel flying 150 KTAS out there. Just

Well, I suppose, then, that the RV-10 and Velocity XL do not actually
exist. Or that their designers GREATLY exaggerate their performance
figures. Or that, based on your definition of an IFR platform (I can
only imagine), they don't qualify.


For $85K you are dreaming.

Clyde Torres

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
...
You are sadly mistaken if you think that there is a four seater IFR
platform
with 3 hours (really almost 4) of fuel flying 150 KTAS out there. Just

Well, I suppose, then, that the RV-10 and Velocity XL do not actually
exist. Or that their designers GREATLY exaggerate their performance
figures. Or that, based on your definition of an IFR platform (I can
only imagine), they don't qualify.

For $85K you are dreaming.

Clyde Torres

Wrong...very possible especially for the RV-10 but probably not for you.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

You are sadly mistaken if you think that there is a four seater IFR
platform
with 3 hours (really almost 4) of fuel flying 150 KTAS out there. Just

Well, I suppose, then, that the RV-10 and Velocity XL do not actually
exist. Or that their designers GREATLY exaggerate their performance
figures. Or that, based on your definition of an IFR platform (I can
only imagine), they don't qualify.


They are just illusions and don't really exist. Damn good looking illusions
though.

mentioning an airplane like the KIS Cruiser will make guys jump in and
start
trying to sell you on it regardless of whether it can meet your needs or
not. Their objective, just like the others, is to get you to go with what
they are building. Later on you will find out that it really doesn't meet
your mission profile. In fact, your mission profile doesn't meet your

A devious, devious, bunch, to be sure. I hear many of them sell their
own children to finance their aircraft.


I DID NOT! Nobody would give me what I was asking...they all wanted me to pay
to take them off my hands. BG

objectives above, especially the $85K sticker shock. If you are worried
about the cost of an exhaust valve on a 152, then you need to stick to RC
model airplanes, much less a non-existent four seater.

You think it makes sense that an exhaust valve costs $250? You think
that is perfectly reasonable and logical?

Having to replace all the valves, unexpectedly, isn't something I
relished, but most certainly something I was capable of covering. Yes,
that's aviation. Actually, I fly much _less_ airplane than I can afford.

There are many guys out there that started building airplanes with good
intentions and found out that they just couldn't afford one or had the time
to build it. They are the vast majority in fact. You either need to face
reality now or get ready to face it in a few years when you're selling off
your uncompleted project.

You need to see a therapist and get to the bottom of your pessimistic,
antisocial attitude. You live for this type of thing, don't you?

BTW, a decent IFR platform isn't just a stable airplane that can be flown
hands off for a few seconds. It involves an instrument package that is
going to cost you more than you think.

Oh, yes, you're right, I have not an inkling. I've done no research
whatsoever. The figure of $20,000 for a decent panel that I mentioned
is completely off the wall. Even though the entirely usable, real-world
IFR panel I have in my Cessna 152 (dual King nav/coms, one with GS,
Garmin 340 w/markers, VFR GPS), right now, cost half of that.

Merry Christmas!

Actually, the IFR panel for a homebuilt will cost a whole lot less than one for
a production aircraft.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)