Groen Bros. DARPA Award

"George Vranek" wrote in message
...
Because it is able to hower. The ability to hower is the only reason why
people buy helicopters which are more complex, more expesive and slower
than
fixed wing aircrafts.

George


The quote above means you have no understanding of why a helicopter is
useful.
I own two planes and a helicopter. The airplanes only take me to airports.
The
Jet Ranger can take me where I'm actually going.

I rarely have any need to hover.

Bart

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 21:36:35 GMT, in rec.aviation.rotorcraft, boB said:

...I was flying Army from 1970 - 1995.

1982 to 1987 here.

My dream was to build a RAF2000 Gyro, mostly because of the enclosed
cockpit and the standard type seating.

Gyros are fun, simple, and affordable rotorcraft.

But no matter what model interests you, some strong words of caution to a
brother pilot...

There have been a lot of very poorly designed gyroplanes created over the
years (from a stability standpoint)... usually created by well meaning people
lacking an in depth understanding of both aerodynamics and physics. This has
lead to a lot of deaths and given amateur-built gyroplanes a bad reputation
that still lingers. Thankfully through better educated buyers, things have
been slowly changing.

Just as you should never buy any non-certified aircraft without first
researching it's safety and design stability, the same applies to gyroplanes.
The interesting thing about gyroplanes is that usually even an unstable one
can get in the air, but it's design flaws will be waiting to kill the
unsuspecting pilot under certain circumstances.

The bottom line is don't ever plunk down money on any gyroplane design until
you've done your research and fully understand the design stability issues and
choices. Don't take one persons word for it... especially if he's trying to
sell you something or has some other personal interest in steering your
decision (sometimes aircraft owners are the most deluded people you can find).
Your life depends on your choices!

Anyway, I don't mean to scare you off from gyroplanes... I just want to warn
you there are still unstable models out there.

And of course it goes without saying that you have to get proper and adequate
dual training before you ever attempt to operate a gyroplane solo. You'd be
surprised how many would-be pilots try to skip this important step for a
variety of not-so-good reasons.

A great place to learn more about gyroplanes is to hang out over on:

www.rotaryforum.com

That dream is on hold now but what do you fly? I would like to hear your experiences.

I fly an open-frame single-place gyroplane called a GyroBee. I built it (from
free plans which can be downloaded on the Internet) staring in 1999, and I
finished in 2000. I have over 125 hours on it now.

You can see some pictures here (that's me flying at a dry lake bed this past
Labor Day weekend):

http://www.autorotation.net/GyroBee/Runup.jpg

http://www.autorotation.net/GyroBee/Circling.jpg

http://www.autorotation.net/GyroBee/Landing.jpg

It's a great little gyro and comfortable to operate.

Take care,

John L.

John A. Landry wrote:

On Fri, 11 Nov 2005 21:36:35 GMT, in rec.aviation.rotorcraft, boB said:


...I was flying Army from 1970 - 1995.


1982 to 1987 here.



I was at Ft Riley KS 82-85 then 2nd ACR in Germany through 1988



But no matter what model interests you, some strong words of caution to a
brother pilot...

There have been a lot of very poorly designed gyroplanes created over the
years (from a stability standpoint)... usually created by well meaning people
lacking an in depth understanding of both aerodynamics and physics. This has
lead to a lot of deaths and given amateur-built gyroplanes a bad reputation
that still lingers. Thankfully through better educated buyers, things have
been slowly changing.

thanks for the advice. When the time comes I'll be researching again.
Right now it's pilots like you that I like to talk with. the pictures
were great. Now that gyro looks a lot of fun to fly.

I've flown OH-58's across this county several times so a slow cruising
gyro is ok with me. I want the enclosed cockpit and ability to travel
cross country, albeit slowly.


Anyway, I don't mean to scare you off from gyroplanes... I just want to warn
you there are still unstable models out there.



Not at all scaring me.


A great place to learn more about gyroplanes is to hang out over on:

www.rotaryforum.com


I'll take a look... Thanks



Take care,

John L.

Thanks again....

--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 01:43:01 GMT, in rec.aviation.rotorcraft, boB said:

I was at Ft Riley KS 82-85 then 2nd ACR in Germany through 1988

I went right to Fort Lewis, WA after graduating from flight school in 1982,
and left the Army from there in 1987.

I've flown OH-58's across this county several times so a slow cruising
gyro is ok with me.

Cool! I flew 58's also in an AHB (Attack Helicopter Battalion) at Fort Lewis
before I snagged a medevac job for four years (in Huey's). Both were lots of
fun (loved the early NVG's flying Scouts), but I think I liked the medevac
better... more action.

My gyro cruises most comfortably at about 50-55 mph (in terms of smooth
handling and lower wind pressure on me), which is also about the max range
airspeed. When I'm in a hurry I'll fly around at 65 mph, but fuel economy
suffers. About 45 mph is the max endurance and best rate of climb airspeed.
70-75 mph is the max level flight speed at sea level and full power. Minimum
level flight speed is about 10-12 mph. Typical climb rate is 750 fpm at sea
level on a cool day and 500 fpm at sea level on a hot day. The highest I've
had it was 8000' msl, and at that point the climb rate had deteriorated to 100
fpm.

It burns about 4.0 to 4.5 gph average on a typical flight at 50-55 mph. At
full power, fuel consumption jumps up around 6-7 gph. My gyro has a 10 gallon
fuel tank, so if I'm conservative with the power settings, I can just fly for
2 hours with a reserve.

I want the enclosed cockpit and ability to travel cross country, albeit slowly.

I live in Washington state, and sometimes I do wish I had a cockpit during the
long winters up here. But it's kinda funny... when the weather is nice, I've
gotten to where I much prefer being out in the open with the unrestricted
view! My hanger partner has an RAF-2000 gyro, and when I fly in that, I don't
like the way the cockpit blocks some of my view. I guess we all grow
accustomed to what we do the most... creatures of habit and all that.

Anyway, my next gyro will likely be a fully enclosed 2-place tractor
configuration.

Thanks again....

My pleasure.

John L.

".... team to design a proof of concept high speed, long range, vertical
takeoff and landing (VTOL) aircraft designed for use in Combat Search and
Rescue roles. ........"

The above press release mentions 'Rescue'. Does not the landing and taking
off from difficulty locations, or the use of a winch, make the ability to
hover a necessary requirement?

Just a question.

Dave Jackson wrote:
".... team to design a proof of concept high speed, long range, vertical
takeoff and landing (VTOL) aircraft designed for use in Combat Search and
Rescue roles. ........"

The above press release mentions 'Rescue'. Does not the landing and taking
off from difficulty locations, or the use of a winch, make the ability to
hover a necessary requirement?

I'd say yes, hover is absolutely a requirement, but not only because of
the landing and taking off part (you may not be able to land at all).

Speaking of only SAR, landing is usually most preferred, but not always
possible. The lack of ability to hover is a serious disadvantage. This
isn't rocket science either... think LZ considerations vegetation,
water, terrain, buildings...

If you land at all, no-hover landings and takeoffs are a consideration,
mainly to minimize blowing dust. A big disadvantage on landing is if
there is soft or irregular terrain or small obstacles. Think rocks,
tree stumps, gopher holes hidden by tall grass. The bottom of the
aircraft can be damaged, landing gear might get caught (result dynamic
rollover). Another option in soft terrain is to touchdown but not take
all the power off while personnel get in or get out of the aircraft. If
you're talking CSAR, you may not have time for a recce pass of the LZ,
and the final decision of if and how to touchdown may be made only a few
feet above landing. That is if there is an LZ at all.

Using a gyro for CSAR support, well, that may be worth consideration,
but it would involve rewriting some doctrine

Just a few of my thoughts.

Hi Bart,

You own two planes and a helicopter....
I am sure that www.diskrotor.com will be the right machine for you.

Regards George

"B4RT" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...

The quote above means you have no understanding of why a helicopter is
useful.
I own two planes and a helicopter. The airplanes only take me to airports.
The
Jet Ranger can take me where I'm actually going.

I rarely have any need to hover.

Bart

On 2005-11-11 17:06:20 -0500, boB said:

boB... there are so many Bob's that I spell my name backwards. I
didn't know about Brewton. The IP I called was something like "dolph"
something.


That would be Dofin Fritts. I've flown with him. Like many of the guys
that instruct in standard (i.e. no hstab) RAF2ks he's somewhat
controversial in the industry. He does love and understand gyros,
although he has a blind spot about longitudinal stability, and I think
he'd be a good instructor.

He's based kind of on the FL/AL border. After all the Florida panhandle
is not Florida, it's where Alabama meets the sea!

I wold have to go back through my folder on the gyro. I hope some day
to be flying again. Right now the pain medication I take is so strong I
don't even drive a car any more.

Hope that you recover from what ails you. If I'd known how much it hurt
to grow old I'd have taken even greater risks in my youth. When you're
feeling better, an alternative to the RAF is the AAI Sparrowhawk, made,
oddly enough, by the selfsame Groen Brothers of this thread.

http;//gbagyros.com/

They began by modifying the RAF design to have centreline thrust and
the thing has got a massive cruciform tail, so it "hunts" a lot less in
the air. Their cabin is larger but it's not really a luggage hauler
either. There are a bunch of detail changes, like bucket seats that
adjust normally instead of a fixed seat/tank and adjustable pedals, and
all the patented RAF doo-hickeys like their mast folding arrangement
are not included.

A complete kit is just under $40k, ready to fly about $67k as a light
sport aircraft. It appears to be racking up a better safety record than
RAF -- RAF just lost another experienced CFI in canada, poor fellow --
but "anything that takes you up as high as a stepladder can kill ya."
And of course, there are maybe 70 AAI kits out there, as opposed to at
least 600, maybe more, RAF 2000s.

If you're in P'cola, the nearest AAI dealer to you is probably Terry
Eiland in the Tampa area.

My Toy
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3...rastrip8lz.jpg

That page made me grin
--
cheers

-=K=-

Rule #1: Don't hit anything big.

Kevin O'Brien wrote:

On 2005-11-11 17:06:20 -0500, boB said:

boB... there are so many Bob's that I spell my name backwards. I
didn't know about Brewton. The IP I called was something like "dolph"
something.


That would be Dofin Fritts. I've flown with him.


That's him....


an alternative to the RAF is the AAI Sparrowhawk, made,
oddly enough, by the selfsame Groen Brothers of this thread.

http;//gbagyros.com/


Thank you for the link. Now I have some time to look at it and from
what you say I would need a flight in each before buying.


If you're in P'cola, the nearest AAI dealer to you is probably Terry
Eiland in the Tampa area.


I'm quite a distance away here in Central Texas. It's a day plus trip
to p'cola


My Toy
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3...rastrip8lz.jpg


That page made me grin

That was a fun little aircraft. I always had the feeling of a slow
hovering helicopter when flying it.

Thanks for the information, I really appreciate it.

--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)

an alternative to the RAF is the AAI Sparrowhawk, made,
oddly enough, by the selfsame Groen Brothers of this thread.

http://gbagyros.com/

Well I'm just an armchair pilot folks.....

So correct me if I am wrong.

It's unfortunate that Ken Sandy EGGO isn't kicking around the group
these days, as I'm sure he would have jumped into this thread by now.

He lives in San Diego and has been flying Gyros for years.

He is a big big champion of the vertical (centerline) stabilizer on
gyros and I do believe has had his share of arguements with the
developers of the RAF gyros on this subject. He has talked about the
dangers of buntover with resulting death in this group at various
times.

If my feeble memory is correct a few years ago Ken sent his unit
to Groen brothers and had some conversion work done by them, which
they mention on their website

http://www.americanautogyro.com/Phot...%20Gallery.htm

Scroll down the photo page to see pix and surf their website for
written info.