Let a friend fly the plane. Legal?

As I understand it, the person ACTING as Pilot In Command may always log the
time (as total time and PIC time), whether that person is sole manipulator
of the flight controls or not.

I have not seen where this is so. I have seen that one may log as PIC
time ONLY that time in which... one is acting as PIC in a situation
where MORE THAN ONE PILOT IS NEEDED. I've seen posted here a letter
from the FAA which appears to attempt to indicate that any time where
one is acting as PIC is loggable as PIC, but the logic in the letter
does not in fact succeed to indicate that.

Nonetheless, I count organic autopilots as flight controls, and log the
time.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Mike Murdock wrote:
: But if a pilot wants, they may allow any person to handle
: the controls, but then neither may log that time.

: As I understand it, the person ACTING as Pilot In Command may always log the
: time (as total time and PIC time), whether that person is sole manipulator
: of the flight controls or not. More than one person can certainly log PIC
: time, but I can't think of a circumstance when nobody can log PIC time.

That is most certainly *NOT* my interpretation up until a few days ago. There
are some inconsistencies between the regulations (FAR 61.51) and the letter of the
FAA from 1977:
http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/msgs//11672.html

I used to think that since there is a clear distinction between acting as PIC
and logging PIC time in the FARs, that there was no way the acting PIC can log PIC
time if a non-pilot was manipulating the controls. One could make the argument that
flipping on an autopilot is "manipulating the controls," but if the FARs say that if
someone else is manipulating the controls, the acting PIC cannot log PIC time.
Furthermore, the non-pilot manipulating the controls cannot log the time since they do
not have a category/class rating. If that person *does* have a category/class rating
they can log the time even though they cannot act as PIC (e.g. no medical, no BFR,
no complex endorsement, etc)

Where it gets funky is what the poster in
http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/msgs//11672.html suggests. The "broad-painted brush"
of the official FAA letter says:
"Also, a pilot, rated in category and class (e.g. airplane single-engine) could, as
the pilot who "Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of
the flight" log PIC time if another pilot, not appropriately rated, was actually
manipulating the controls of the aircraft." As the poster surmised, one could take
that to the conclusion that a non-complex-endorsed (but category/class-rated) pilot
could log PIC time for manipulating the controls of a complex aircraft AND the
complex-endorsed pilot acting as PIC.

Crap... I *thought* I understood this whole thing. If it weren't for the
letter, letting grandma or Fido fly means (according to the literal FARs) that
*nobody* can log PIC.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote in message
...
Mike Murdock wrote:
: But if a pilot wants, they may allow any person to handle
: the controls, but then neither may log that time.

: As I understand it, the person ACTING as Pilot In Command may always log
the
: time (as total time and PIC time), whether that person is sole
manipulator
: of the flight controls or not. More than one person can certainly log
PIC
: time, but I can't think of a circumstance when nobody can log PIC time.

That is most certainly *NOT* my interpretation up until a few days ago.
There
are some inconsistencies between the regulations (FAR 61.51) and the
letter of the
FAA from 1977:
http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/msgs//11672.html

I used to think that since there is a clear distinction between acting as
PIC
and logging PIC time in the FARs, that there was no way the acting PIC can
log PIC
time if a non-pilot was manipulating the controls.

Crap... I *thought* I understood this whole thing. If it weren't for the
letter, letting grandma or Fido fly means (according to the literal FARs)
that
*nobody* can log PIC.

You've got it right. The FAA's legal opinion contradicts 61.51e. But at
least the error is in our favor--that is, it removes a restriction rather
than imposing one.

--Gary

Doug wrote:

One of my students asked me if it is legal to let a friend fly his
plane. Student is legal PIC, not an instructor and the plane has dual
controls, his friend is an adult, but no license. But I have to admit,
although I don't know of any specific prohibition on this, I'm not sure
if I should tell him its legal or not (I told him I'd research it and
get back to him. In the meantime he is supposed to read the FARS and
see if he can find out for himself).

Anyone know for sure?


Last I knew, primary students couldn't carry passengers. If your
student is an instrument student with a private license (I'm assuming
this is a reasonably assumption given this ng), then sure he can let a
friend handle the controls.

Matt

If the student has a private certificate, its legal. If your student is
a student pilot, it is not legal.

When I said student was legal PIC, guess I should have said student
had Private Pilot and all the ratings/signoffs to be PIC in this
airplane.

So yes, I guess he's legal so far as the FAA.

In a previous article, "Doug" said:
One of my students asked me if it is legal to let a friend fly his
plane. Student is legal PIC, not an instructor and the plane has dual

When you're a legally certificated and medicalled pilot, and you let your
friends or family members take the controls, they are just a meat-based
autopilot. You're still PIC, and it's no different than if you'd turned
on George.

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-
boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." - spaf (1992)

You can only log PIC when another pilot [licensed or not] is
flying if you are a CFI. An ATP may log PIC when that
authority was assigned by the dispatcher for a 135 or 121
flight. In a 121 long haul flight, the PIC can log that
time even while asleep in the bunk. Further, an ATP may
give and log instruction in 121 and 135 operations that
require an ATP for the pilot.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm





"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...
| In a previous article, "Doug"
said:
| One of my students asked me if it is legal to let a
friend fly his
| plane. Student is legal PIC, not an instructor and the
plane has dual
|
| When you're a legally certificated and medicalled pilot,
and you let your
| friends or family members take the controls, they are just
a meat-based
| autopilot. You're still PIC, and it's no different than
if you'd turned
| on George.
|
| --
| Paul Tomblin
http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
| "Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with
diarrhea -- massive,
| difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a
source of mind-
| boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect
t." - spaf (1992)

You can only log PIC when another pilot [licensed or not] is
flying if you are a CFI.

(apologies if this is a dupe)
What about a safety pilot?

You can only log PIC when another pilot [licensed or not] is
flying if you are a CFI

What about a safety pilot?