Another ADIZ violation?

Michelle P wrote:

The problem is if you have a communications or transponder problem then
you must turn around and leave the ADIZ on the most direct route out and
away from the center.

Depending upon the circumstances of the failure (ie. a complete electrical
failure in IMC but still near an airport), departing an airport's area
would compound the problem. I don't know the circumstances of this pilot's
difficulty or response, but I could easily see following the aforementioned
rule being the wrong choice in at least some cases.

That is a perspective I've yet to notice: the ADIZ is unsafe.

- Andrew

GS wrote:
I'm not familiar with the area with regards to the airspace
but with the IAD and BWI Class B plus the ADIZ, it must
be pretty easy to bust with everything working.
More importantly, I don't think the guy busted ANYTHING
per 91.3. A complete electrical failure is an emergency in my
book. If I had a complete electrical failure I'd
land wherever the hell *I* felt like it as long as my
butt was safe in the end.

91.3 doesn't give you carte blanche to do whatever you want. It gives you
the authority to deviate from the rules *to the extent required* to deal
with the emergency.

What were the flight conditions? Day-VFR in a typical light plane, for
example, total electrical failure should be a complete non-event, and
certainly doesn't justify calling 91.3 into play.

91.3 doesn't give you carte blanche to do whatever you want. It gives you
the authority to deviate from the rules *to the extent required* to deal
with the emergency.

.... and a communication failure in the ADIZ is a bona fide emergency
even in circumstances which, outside the ADIZ, would be a non-event. It
may well be better to turn around and land nearby than to point the nose
outward and drone on for fifteen minutes in an unexpected direction.
Those are real guns and missles the fighters carry, and they have almost
been used too often for my comfort.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Actually, I believe the ADIZ procedure in case of communications
failure, as Michelle stated, is to exit the ADIZ by the shortest
possible route. I once was asked by Potomac to try to help communicate
with a guy who discovered after takeoff that he wasn't receiving. The
other pilot kep declaring his intention to return to the airport (he
was able to transmit) and the controller kept frantically trying to
tell him not to land but to exit the ADIZ.

Wiz

Jose wrote:
91.3 doesn't give you carte blanche to do whatever you want. It gives you
the authority to deviate from the rules *to the extent required* to deal
with the emergency.

... and a communication failure in the ADIZ is a bona fide emergency
even in circumstances which, outside the ADIZ, would be a non-event. It
may well be better to turn around and land nearby than to point the nose
outward and drone on for fifteen minutes in an unexpected direction.

It's hardly an unexpected direction, considering there's a NOTAM
instructing you to do exactly that:

!FDC 4/5555 ZDC SPECIAL NOTICE... EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL
FURTHER NOTICE. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY
INSTRUCTIONS, THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURES ARE IN EFFECT:
A. ANY PERSON OPERATING AN AIRCRAFT WITHIN THE WASHINGTON, DC
METROPOLITAN AREA AIR DEFENSE IDENTIFICATION ZONE (DC ADIZ),
IMMEDIATELY UPON BECOMING AWARE OF AN INABILITY TO COMPLY WITH THE
REQUIREMENT TO CONTINUOUSLY TRANSMIT THE ATC ASSIGNED TRANSPONDER
CODE, SHALL EXIT THE DC ADIZ BY FLYING THE MOST DIRECT COURSE TO
OUTSIDE THE LATERAL LIMITS OF THE DC ADIZ.

("Jose" wrote)
[snip]
Those are real guns and missles the fighters carry, and they have almost
been used too often for my comfort.


A missle, fired by a fighter pilot patroling Washington DC's airspace,
slammed into the roof of a school for handicaped blind children today, after
missing its intended target. Film at 11.


Montblack ....breaking into song!

And Go-Cart Mozart was checkin' out the weather chart
to see if it was safe to go outside

And little Early-Pearly came by in her curly-wurly
and asked me if I needed a ride

Oh, some hazard from Harvard was skunked on beer,
playin' backyard bombardier

Yes, and Scotland Yard was trying hard,
they sent some dude with a calling card,
he said, "Do what you like, but don't do it here"

Well, I jumped up, turned around, spit in the air, fell on the ground
and asked him which was the way back home

He said, "Take a right at the light, keep goin' straight until night,
and then, boy, you're on your own"

- Bruce Springsteen 1973

Roy Smith wrote:

GS wrote:

I'm not familiar with the area with regards to the airspace
but with the IAD and BWI Class B plus the ADIZ, it must
be pretty easy to bust with everything working.
More importantly, I don't think the guy busted ANYTHING
per 91.3. A complete electrical failure is an emergency in my
book. If I had a complete electrical failure I'd
land wherever the hell *I* felt like it as long as my
butt was safe in the end.
91.3 doesn't give you carte blanche to do whatever you want. It gives you
the authority to deviate from the rules *to the extent required* to deal
with the emergency.
What were the flight conditions? Day-VFR in a typical light plane,for
example, total electrical failure should be a complete non-event, and
certainly doesn't justify calling 91.3 into play.

correct, I'd generally consider a complete electrical failure
a major emergency as in 'get to the nearest airport ASAP and as long
as myself and my passengers will be safe." Obviously something is
seriously wrong with the plane.

Yes the plane will continue to fly and you are in Day VFR, but a "none
event?" Would you just continue to fly on as though nothing had
happened? Would you take off in the same area with your electrical
system dead (and in a plane designed with an electrical system)?
I presume you wouldn't otherwise you should be working for MX
at my flying club. (I fly the only plane online that is NOT
maintained by my club.)


So do you think the complete electrical failure did NOT contribute to
this incident? How else would you explain busting the ADIZ? Would you
consider your busting the ADIZ as a "none event?"

Gerald

GS wrote:
What were the flight conditions? Day-VFR in a typical light plane,for
example, total electrical failure should be a complete non-event, and
certainly doesn't justify calling 91.3 into play.

correct, I'd generally consider a complete electrical failure
a major emergency as in 'get to the nearest airport ASAP and as long
as myself and my passengers will be safe." Obviously something is
seriously wrong with the plane.

Well, something is seriously wrong with the electrical system, that's
for sure. The vast majority of things which can bring a light plane's
electrical system down will have absolutely no effect on the plane's
ability to continue to fly safely until fuel is exhausted, as long as
you are in conditions which allow you to navigate visually.

Yes the plane will continue to fly and you are in Day VFR, but a "none
event?" Would you just continue to fly on as though nothing had
happened?

No, I didn't say that. What I said (or at least meant by "non-event")
was that it's not an emergency. Emergencies require immediate action.
Abnormal situations like electrical failures in benign conditions
require assessing the situation calmly and taking the time to come up
with a plan which minimizes the risks. The number one rule about
dealing with problems in flight is don't rush to do something which
may make the situation worse.

There's an old joke about a veteran pilot getting a flight check. The
examiner fails one engine. The pilot immediately follows the "engine
out" drill and gets the plane stabilized, then pulls out his pocket
watch and starts winding it. The exminer says, "Well, you did a
really good job getting the plane under control, but shouldn't you be
doing something about getting us on the ground now, we've still got an
emergency to deal with!" The pilot calmly replies, "Well, sonny, I
already dealt with the emergency. Plenty of people have gotten killed
recovering from engine failures, but I've never heard of anybody
getting killed by winding a watch".

Busting the ADIZ is more than just a technical violation, it's an
action which involves real, physical, risks. You're going to end up
flying close formation with high performance aircraft with whom you
cannot communicate. How much training do you have performing that
maneuver? There are examples of such intercepts which have resulted
in mid-airs. There was one a few years back off the NJ coast which
resulted in the airliner's crew performing a panic dive in response to
multiple TCAS RA's, causing serious injury to people in the cabin.
What's the wake turbulence like from an F-16 in slow flight? Beats
me, but I'd rather not find out.

Would you take off in the same area with your electrical
system dead (and in a plane designed with an electrical system)?

Of course not. I never said anything like that.

"GS" wrote in message ...
A complete electrical failure is an emergency in my
book. If I had a complete electrical failure I'd
land wherever the hell *I* felt like it as long as my
butt was safe in the end.

Depends upon the weather conditions at the time... Day VFR over familiar
territory? Nawh, I wouldn't consider it an emergency... Night VFR over
Houston? Not a big deal, I've landed without a landing light quite a few
times... I guess it depends upon how familiar you are with your aircraft...

Grumman-581 wrote:
Depends upon the weather conditions at the time... Day VFR over familiar
territory? Nawh, I wouldn't consider it an emergency... Night VFR over
Houston? Not a big deal, I've landed without a landing light quite a few
times... I guess it depends upon how familiar you are with your aircraft...

What about if you're attempting to navigate through really complicated
airspace? I ask because to the south of these areas (where the
pilot in the OP was attempting to fly) are several military airfields
and loads of special use & restricted airspace. Above is the floor of
DCA's class B. Just wandering south or following the river will get
you out of the ADIZ, but you will still fly into a world of problems.
Flying the plane--which is supposed to be the first priority -- can
quickly take a back seat to just getting on the ground where you can
simply be cuffed rather than be shot down.

It's not just a theoretical discussion for me. I regularly fly in both
the FRZ and ADIZ, and could some day need to make this call. I think
I know the area well enough to be Ok if it's daylight severe clear.
3-5 mi viz would be iffy. Night? Forget it.