Smooth policy????

The last time I checked with Avenco, there sublimit was $100,000 per person
(in aircraft or outside aircraft). Thus, went with a different company.

Jerry in NC

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...
You're right as to some; others are $100m per person, wherever situated
at the fated moment. I suppose if my engine stops just after a
straight out departure from 25 here, there will be a whole lot of
people on the ground to worry about. It's just that elsewhere here in
Big Sky Country, there's soooooo much vacant real estate.

People on the ground are not subject to the sublimit, just passengers.
People on the ground exercise your liability limit (usually $1
million).

-Robert

In article .com,
"Robert M. Gary" wrote:
People on the ground are not subject to the sublimit, just passengers.
People on the ground exercise your liability limit (usually $1
million).

People on the ground are subject to the sub limit if the policy sub
limit states PER PERSON and not PER SEAT or PER PASSENGER.

Avemco used to have per seat/per passenger sub limits, but I'm not sure
if they still do. There may be other underwriters who do the same.



JKG

Robert M. Gary wrote:


People on the ground are not subject to the sublimit, just passengers.

As long as the sublimit is per passenger. Some policies are per person
and that does limit those on the ground.

I just got quotes for a turbo arrow with 85k hull, 100k/1m, I have about 250
hours with less than 100 in type, no instrument rating (yet).
Avemco just shy of $2700
AOPA/AIG: just over $1900
AOPA/Phoenix: $1775
I just thought I would share this info since it seems shocking the
differences in price between very similar policies.
Next year I will get a 5% for instrument ticket, and a few years from now,
5% for over 500 hours TT and 100 in type.

"Tri-Pacer" wrote in message
...
Recently a thread was posted concerning a "smooth insurance policy"

What is a "smooth policy"

Thanks

Paul
N1431A

In article ,
"Tri-Pacer" wrote:

Recently a thread was posted concerning a "smooth insurance policy"

What is a "smooth policy"

Thanks

Paul
N1431A


Personally, I don't think that a $1M smooth policy really buys you much
additional risk protection over the per-seat sub-limits. In my case it
makes even less sense, as I rarely ever carry passengers, other than my
wife.

Note also that some policies specify PER SEAT sub-limits, and other
policies specify PER PERSON sub-limits. The former places compensation
limits on the passengers, while the latter places compensation limits on
everyone, including people on the ground.

I suspect that if you routinely carry passengers, and have substantial
assets, a higher-value "smooth" policy might make more sense. In my
opinion, the $1M smooth is little more than a "feel good" policy for
most people.



JKG

If you never carry passengers other than your immediate family members,
then the 1M smooth policy is a genuine waste of money.

However if you do even occasionally carry passengers, you should
seriously consider 1M smooth policy. Almost all the plane owners have
at least several hundred thousands worth of personal assets. In a
crash that results in personal injury the $100k submit can't even begin
to pay for anything, and the insurance company will likely wash its
hands and pay out that $100k w/o spending much on a good attorney for
your defense. The 1M liability will cause the insurance company to
take the case seriously and spend money on a really good attorney.

--M

Jonathan Goodish wrote:

Personally, I don't think that a $1M smooth policy really buys you much
additional risk protection over the per-seat sub-limits. In my case it
makes even less sense, as I rarely ever carry passengers, other than my
wife.

Note also that some policies specify PER SEAT sub-limits, and other
policies specify PER PERSON sub-limits. The former places compensation
limits on the passengers, while the latter places compensation limits on
everyone, including people on the ground.

I suspect that if you routinely carry passengers, and have substantial
assets, a higher-value "smooth" policy might make more sense. In my
opinion, the $1M smooth is little more than a "feel good" policy for
most people.



JKG

In article . com,
"M" wrote:
If you never carry passengers other than your immediate family members,
then the 1M smooth policy is a genuine waste of money.

However if you do even occasionally carry passengers, you should
seriously consider 1M smooth policy. Almost all the plane owners have
at least several hundred thousands worth of personal assets. In a
crash that results in personal injury the $100k submit can't even begin
to pay for anything, and the insurance company will likely wash its
hands and pay out that $100k w/o spending much on a good attorney for
your defense. The 1M liability will cause the insurance company to
take the case seriously and spend money on a really good attorney.


If someone is going to hire an attorney to sue, chances are they're
going after more than $1M if you have those assets. Between attorney's
fees and court costs, I'm not sure that it would be worth anyone's time
to go after, say, $500k when their other option is to walk away with
$100k and not have to pay anyone.

If your assets exceed $1M, obviously those assets are still at risk if
your policy limits are $1M smooth.

Personally, I don't plan to crash and do everything possible to avoid
it. Anyone can decide to sue for any reason, but if you're that
paranoid then you probably shouldn't be carrying passengers to begin
with. Bottom line is that I don't think the $1M smooth policies really
buy you much, nor do I think that the risk is great enough to worry
about the $100k per seat sub limits.



JKG

X-archive-no: yes

Jonathan Goodish wrote:
Personally, I don't plan to crash and do everything possible to avoid
it. Anyone can decide to sue for any reason, but if you're that
paranoid then you probably shouldn't be carrying passengers to begin
with. Bottom line is that I don't think the $1M smooth policies really
buy you much, nor do I think that the risk is great enough to worry
about the $100k per seat sub limits.

Jonathan,
I used to think in the same line until reading Rick Durden's
article which someone cited earlier in this thread:

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/189307-1.html

"Some Blunt Talk About Aviation Insurance (or, What You Don't Know
About Sublimits Can Hurt You)
............

Some years ago I worked a case involving a pilot who had a million
dollar policy with $100,000 sublimits. It appeared he was doing
something that might be considered less than safe while carrying one
passenger. He crashed and was killed instantly. The passenger survived
for a period of time, in hideous pain, before dying. The passenger's
estate sued the pilot's estate. The pilot's insurance company put up
the $100,000 sublimit; however, it was nowhere near enough to pay what
was being demanded by the estate of the deceased passenger. Yes, the
estate of the pilot got hit. The widow and children suffered
financially. Now, one of the widow's memories of her husband is that he
was too cheap to buy adequate insurance and it hurt her and the kids.

Yes, the $100,000 sublimit policy (as well as the smooth policy) does
pay for your attorney fees if you are sued. The costs of your defense
do not come out of the $100,000 (or $1 million) pool of money that is
available to pay a person making a claim against you. If you have few
assets beyond your airplane, a $100,000 sublimit policy is likely to be
enough; the injured person will probably take it and go away. However,
by the time you get up to ownership of a Cessna 182 or Cherokee Dakota,
the chances are pretty good that you have assets beyond that airplane;
otherwise you could not have afforded it in the first place. So, to
protect yourself, take a hard look at buying a "smooth" policy, with $1
million completely available, because the chances are that if you screw
up and hurt someone, it won't be a lot of people and each one will have
damages of more than $100,000. You've spent a lot on your airplane --
don't go cheap in protecting yourself and your family.

Sadly, in my experience, a majority of pilots who buy insurance don't
know what a sublimits policy is or what the ramifications are; only
that they are cheaper to buy than a smooth policy.

As I heard recently, cheap is never good and good is never cheap. "

This year, it cost us ~ 1/3 more to get a smooth policy. I consider
the extra $500 is a reasonable price to pay so that we can continue to
enjoy sharing our love of aviation with relatives, friends,
acquaintances and even complete strangers while having some degrees of
protection to our assets. We do everything possible to fly safe but
accidents can happen even to the very experienced and very careful
pilots, IMHO, $100K per passenger is extremely inadequate to pay for
medical cost and compensation for death or serious injuries.

Hai Longworth

Perhaps the widow should forget about the insurance and consider the
husband's reckless regard for her, the kids, and his passenger by doing
something stupid while flying an airplane.

Some years ago I worked a case involving a pilot who had a million
dollar policy with $100,000 sublimits. It appeared he was doing
something that might be considered less than safe while carrying one
passenger.

..stuff snipped, then this tidbit
Now, one of the widow's memories of her husband is that he
was too cheap to buy adequate insurance and it hurt her and the kids.

In article .com,
"Longworth" wrote:
Personally, I don't plan to crash and do everything possible to avoid
it. Anyone can decide to sue for any reason, but if you're that
paranoid then you probably shouldn't be carrying passengers to begin
with. Bottom line is that I don't think the $1M smooth policies really
buy you much, nor do I think that the risk is great enough to worry
about the $100k per seat sub limits.

Jonathan,
I used to think in the same line until reading Rick Durden's
article which someone cited earlier in this thread:


What Rick doesn't say, at least in your excerpt, is what the pilot's
estate was worth. My entire point is that the risk isn't that great
with $100k sub limits on a $1M policy, because if your estate is worth
more than $1M the policy isn't going to protect you anyway. If your
estate is worth, say, $500k, there isn't much incentive IMO to go after
it as a plaintiff because, in the end, the plaintiff may not wind up
with much more than $100k even if they're successful in the lawsuit.

My other point is that I don't intentionally do stupid things in the
airplane, allowing me to avoid the type of accident that Rick's example
illustrates.

Though there are exceptions to every rule, my guess is that most cases
where passengers litigate against a pilot are won or lost based on the
plaintiff's ability to prove willful negligence on the part of the pilot
or operator. If you don't do stupid things with your airplane, you
significantly reduce your risk of bad things happening.



JKG