Using Ethanol in Your Plane

"Dan Youngquist" wrote in message
hell.org...
On Sun, 5 Mar 2006, RST Engineering wrote:

However, when Ernie found out that California fuel contained about 5%
ethanol, he considered that the rubber bladder fuel tanks and the
neoprene carb needle probably wouldn't be overjoyed sitting all winter in
an ethanol bath and hasn't used it since.

Did Ernie ever take a look at those & other parts to see if they were
actually affected by the ethanol?

On a related note, I'd be very interested in hearing about experiences or
knowledgeable opinions on using ethanol in an IO-360-A1A. In particular,
I'd like to know if there's anything in the fuel injection system that
would be negatively affected by ethanol, and what octane I need to stay
above to avoid any chance of detonation (8.7:1 compression). It's in an
experimental airplane so there's no concerns about legality.

-Dan

There is a squadron of RV-3's that has flown exclusively on ethanol for 10
years or more. You could probably google them to find out more information.

A couple of things about Ethanol: 1) It has higher octane than avgas. 2)
It has lower specific energy content.

That means you can raise the compression ratio, but gallon for gallon, your
range will be less.

KB

True. Not only the range will be less gallon for gallon, it'll be less
pound for pound as well, because ethanol has lower specific energy
content by weight as well compared with gasoline.

However, a spark ignited engine specifically designed for burning
ethanol can be lighter because the lower CHT, which reduces the need of
cylinder cooling, which in term allows a cowling design that has
smaller cooling drag. Cooling drag is one of the biggest drag
components in total drag. I don't know the answer, but it's possible
an airframe and engine combination specifically designed for ethanol
fuel might be just as just as good in terms of performance and range,
compared with today's gasoline powered piston planes.

Looking in to the long term future, the day will come when airline
industry sees the need to invest in alternative and renewable fuel for
the sole reason of economy. When that happens we'll probably see
ethanol powered jet engines. Hopefully there will still be private
piston flying in this country and we'll start to see clean sheet design
piston engine and airframe based on a new fuel. Maybe instead of
ethanol, we'll have diesel engine burning corn oil :-)




Kyle Boatright wrote:


A couple of things about Ethanol: 1) It has higher octane than avgas. 2)
It has lower specific energy content.

That means you can raise the compression ratio, but gallon for gallon, your
range will be less.

KB

On 6 Mar 2006 22:13:26 -0800, "M" wrote:

True. Not only the range will be less gallon for gallon, it'll be less
pound for pound as well, because ethanol has lower specific energy
content by weight as well compared with gasoline.

However, a spark ignited engine specifically designed for burning
ethanol can be lighter because the lower CHT, which reduces the need of
cylinder cooling, which in term allows a cowling design that has
smaller cooling drag. Cooling drag is one of the biggest drag
components in total drag. I don't know the answer, but it's possible
an airframe and engine combination specifically designed for ethanol
fuel might be just as just as good in terms of performance and range,
compared with today's gasoline powered piston planes.

The energy in a gallon of Ethanol is considerably less than a gallon
of gas.
E85 which is 85% Ethanol and 15% gas requires about 25 to 30% more
fuel flow to produce the same energy as straight gas. Straight Ethanol
contains only 66% the energy of gas which means you'd need to carry
54% more for the same energy output.

So, although it's lighter it takes a whole lot more.
Taken in perspective, to get the range I get with 100 gallons I'd need
154 gallons. That is 4 gallons more than both my mains hold.


Looking in to the long term future, the day will come when airline
industry sees the need to invest in alternative and renewable fuel for

Quite likely but part of that is going to be due to higher prices for
fuel. The break even point (which is an ever moving target) is around
$3.50 a gallon. Once we reach that point renewable fuels become
economically viable.

Just briefly Alcohol futures hit higher than crude last summer, but in
general Ethanol is more expensive than gas, particularly when the
subsidies are taken into consideration. Plus the generation of
Alcohol is not all that efficient. It depends on which study you
read, but the return is between 1.35 and 1.56 gallons energy wise
(give or take a few hundredths). That means you get back between 1.35
and 1.56 gallons for every gallon of fuel used to produce the stuff.
To produce that much Alcohol would take over 400,000,000 acres of
corn. We currently have about 80,000,000 in production nation wide.
However even 1.56 is not considered sufficient to make the fuel a
viable source long term. It really needs to be on the order of 2:1 or
two gallons out for every gallon in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol..._United_States

the sole reason of economy. When that happens we'll probably see
ethanol powered jet engines. Hopefully there will still be private

Peanut oil, or some other high energy (BTU) source. Alcohol just
doesn't have the BTUs

First, from the national security approach, or dependence on foreign
oil, we only need to increase the national average mileage by about 7
MPG to eliminate the need for importing crude to use as auto fuel.
It's currently very close to 21 MPG average. It hit about 22 MPG
about 8 or 10 years back before trucks started outselling cars.
It'd only take about 15% going to hybrid cars to do this.

piston flying in this country and we'll start to see clean sheet design
piston engine and airframe based on a new fuel. Maybe instead of
ethanol, we'll have diesel engine burning corn oil :-)

and Jet engines.

However we run the very serious risk of running into the same problems
as Brazil where they use sugar cane as an efficient source of Ethanol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol...l_implications
They diverted so much land into the production of sugar cane for fuel
that they lost a lot of biodiversity which led to sharply higher food
prices and crime due to unemployment.





Kyle Boatright wrote:


A couple of things about Ethanol: 1) It has higher octane than avgas. 2)
It has lower specific energy content.

That means you can raise the compression ratio, but gallon for gallon, your
range will be less.

My wife is currently driving a hybrid that uses 13:1 in the gas engine
which is probably made possible by the use of variable cam timing.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

KB

There are better ways of testing this than just putting
ethanol/gasoline in random tanks and "see what happens". That is what
STC's are for. They test the fuel and see if it is ok for that plane.
If your STC says no ethanol, you can't burn ethanol.

Jay Honeck wrote:


Jim Weir, you out there? Have you done any barn yard experimenting with
ethanol in your 182?

Ethanol isn't currently a solution to anything other than
Archer-Daniels-Midland. It's not a viable source of energy (current
production techniques use as much oil to grow and process the
ethanol than the oil it would replace in the market). Further,
the use of it as an oxygenate in reformulated fuels is suspect
as well.

Designing a gasoline vehicle to be fuel-flexible isn't hard.
Retrofitting one isn't impossible (but may be more trouble
than it's worth).

Most new cars sold today in Brazil are fuel flexible. This is made
posible with electronic fuel injection systems. Ethanol today is 1/2"
price of gasoline and 1/3 of Avgas in Brazil. Cars run on Ethanol have
consums more than cars run on gasoline.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Most new cars sold today in Brazil are fuel flexible. This is made
posible with electronic fuel injection systems. Ethanol today is 1/2"
price of gasoline and 1/3 of Avgas in Brazil. Cars run on Ethanol have
consums more than cars run on gasoline.


Many new cars sold today in AMERICA are fuel flexible. Here is a list for
2006.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/cleanciti...fv/models.html

"Icebound" wrote in message
...


Many new cars sold today in AMERICA are fuel flexible. Here is a list for
2006.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/cleanciti...fv/models.html





Sorry... wrong link.. Here is the correct one:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/my2006_afv_atv.pdf

On 7 Mar 2006 17:43:06 -0800, wrote:

Most new cars sold today in Brazil are fuel flexible. This is made
posible with electronic fuel injection systems. Ethanol today is 1/2"
price of gasoline and 1/3 of Avgas in Brazil. Cars run on Ethanol have
consums more than cars run on gasoline.

And the cost according to studies is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol...l_implications

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Ethanol isn't currently a solution to anything other than
Archer-Daniels-Midland. It's not a viable source of energy (current
production techniques use as much oil to grow and process the
ethanol than the oil it would replace in the market). Further,
the use of it as an oxygenate in reformulated fuels is suspect
as well.

While this is undoubtedly true, it's sadly irrelevant.

The politicians -- not the scientists, or even the economists -- have made
the decision to go ahead with ethanol, and we're going to be stuck with it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"