Grob 102 Wanted

At 17:48 24 April 2006, Jono Richards wrote:

As a new (effectively) glider pilot, buy something
well known, with
decent perfromance and an easy to rig trailer, and
fly alot !


I agree - Grobs are great, no doubt about it - but
why not get something that will last you a bit longer.

If I was in your shoes there are many gliders I would
be thinking of, not just good well known German ones.
I am a firm believer that the LAK12 is well worth a
look at.

Fantastic performance, flapped and good trailers -
should have no trouble converting to it either.

Down side - heavy on the rigging side and big wings
mean a little more care needed takeoff/landing.

But the biggest plus side - 12k for it! You get a lot
of glider for the buck there, and it is something that
you quite possibly will never grow out of.

Thats my rant done...

JR


JR, thanks for that rant. You say that the LAK-12
trailers are nice, but to me they look huge, and they
are tube type, which I wouldn't favor. And you say
12K, that's in pounds, I presume?

OK, now we're getting down to my real question. What
decent gliders are bargains? I was looking into a
LAK-12, but was told that if I got one of those, I'd
lose all my friends, because the wings are so heavy.
There are at least 3 or 4 of those available below
$20k, and some of them are even relatively nearby.
Also a Jantar 2B, but it's out west. A couple of
Jantar Stds. 3 or 4 Grob 104s. Even a Grob 102, which
I've been flying lately, and like. For just a little
more a couple of Kestrel 19m. From what I read, I
could fly any of these. I've been warned away from
the first-generation glass ships, like the Std. Cirrus,
Mini Nimbus and the like. I don't see myself being
a competitor, at least not past the sport class, and
that in a couple of years. I just want to learn something
about XC, get my badges, and have fun.

I could have bought a very nice Ka6 cheap, but found
that I don't fit in that, no way. A 1-26 was recommended,
and I've flown and like them, but I'm looking higher.

Are there some types I'm overlooking?

TIA,
Ed

Edward Winchester wrote:

OK, now we're getting down to my real question. What
decent gliders are bargains? I was looking into a
LAK-12, but was told that if I got one of those, I'd
lose all my friends, because the wings are so heavy.
There are at least 3 or 4 of those available below
$20k, and some of them are even relatively nearby.
Also a Jantar 2B, but it's out west. A couple of
Jantar Stds. 3 or 4 Grob 104s. Even a Grob 102, which
I've been flying lately, and like. For just a little
more a couple of Kestrel 19m. From what I read, I
could fly any of these. I've been warned away from
the first-generation glass ships, like the Std. Cirrus,
Mini Nimbus and the like. I don't see myself being
a competitor, at least not past the sport class, and
that in a couple of years. I just want to learn something
about XC, get my badges, and have fun.

I could have bought a very nice Ka6 cheap, but found
that I don't fit in that, no way. A 1-26 was recommended,
and I've flown and like them, but I'm looking higher.

Are there some types I'm overlooking?

I asked this question a while back, and it was pointed out to me that
the Schweitzer 1-35s and 1-34s are usually available for about $15K. If
you are willing to deal with kit-built planes, there are HP-14s for
about $10K, and HP-11s for about $6K.

All these are metal ships, which should cut down the maintenance
requirements nicely.

Johan Larson

I have owned a Grob 104 Speed Astir for many years.
There is another on my field that has been flying
for the last 12 years. They are very good, solid,
predictable, simple planes that have excellent flight
qualities. The flexible flap hinge has never been
a problem. The plane was equal to a discus up to 75
knots (dry). They are about the best value you can
have for the dollar. I had a one man rigging Minden
Fab trailer and it was only 15 minutes to rig the plane
by myself.

Those that have not had experience with that plane
should not be commenting.

Guy Acheson

wrote in message
ups.com...


I asked this question a while back, and it was pointed out to me that
the Schweitzer 1-35s and 1-34s are usually available for about $15K. If
you are willing to deal with kit-built planes, there are HP-14s for
about $10K, and HP-11s for about $6K.

All these are metal ships, which should cut down the maintenance
requirements nicely.

Johan Larson


For a complete list of the Schreder designs that are currently on the market
can be seen at
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/Tr...ding_Post.html

Wayne
HP-14 N990 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-14/N990/N990.html

Wayne Paul wrote:


For a complete list of the Schreder designs that are currently on the market
can be seen at
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/Tr...ding_Post.html

How complete is "complete"?

Johan Larson

wrote in message
ups.com...

Wayne Paul wrote:


A complete list of the Schreder designs that are currently on the market
can be seen at
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/Tr...ding_Post.html

How complete is "complete"?

Johan Larson


The Yahoo hp-gliders new group currently has over 300 members.
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hp-gliders) They do a good job keeping me
informed when Schreder sailplane are for sale. In addition I review the
"Wings and Wheels" and "Soaring" want ads to see if I have missed any. (I
am sure there are some that change hands without my knowledge.)

Wayne
HP-14 N990 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

There are also some Libelles out there for about the same $ as the 104. They
might also be worth a look. Easy to rig.
Wad.
---
"Edward Winchester" wrote in
message ...
At 17:48 24 April 2006, Jono Richards wrote:

As a new (effectively) glider pilot, buy something
well known, with
decent perfromance and an easy to rig trailer, and
fly alot !


I agree - Grobs are great, no doubt about it - but
why not get something that will last you a bit longer.

If I was in your shoes there are many gliders I would
be thinking of, not just good well known German ones.
I am a firm believer that the LAK12 is well worth a
look at.

Fantastic performance, flapped and good trailers -
should have no trouble converting to it either.

Down side - heavy on the rigging side and big wings
mean a little more care needed takeoff/landing.

But the biggest plus side - 12k for it! You get a lot
of glider for the buck there, and it is something that
you quite possibly will never grow out of.

Thats my rant done...

JR


JR, thanks for that rant. You say that the LAK-12
trailers are nice, but to me they look huge, and they
are tube type, which I wouldn't favor. And you say
12K, that's in pounds, I presume?

OK, now we're getting down to my real question. What
decent gliders are bargains? I was looking into a
LAK-12, but was told that if I got one of those, I'd
lose all my friends, because the wings are so heavy.
There are at least 3 or 4 of those available below
$20k, and some of them are even relatively nearby.
Also a Jantar 2B, but it's out west. A couple of
Jantar Stds. 3 or 4 Grob 104s. Even a Grob 102, which
I've been flying lately, and like. For just a little
more a couple of Kestrel 19m. From what I read, I
could fly any of these. I've been warned away from
the first-generation glass ships, like the Std. Cirrus,
Mini Nimbus and the like. I don't see myself being
a competitor, at least not past the sport class, and
that in a couple of years. I just want to learn something
about XC, get my badges, and have fun.

I could have bought a very nice Ka6 cheap, but found
that I don't fit in that, no way. A 1-26 was recommended,
and I've flown and like them, but I'm looking higher.

Are there some types I'm overlooking?

TIA,
Ed

In article ,
Guy Acheson wrote:

I have owned a Grob 104 Speed Astir for many years.
There is another on my field that has been flying
for the last 12 years. They are very good, solid,
predictable, simple planes that have excellent flight
qualities. The flexible flap hinge has never been
a problem. The plane was equal to a discus up to 75
knots (dry). They are about the best value you can
have for the dollar. I had a one man rigging Minden
Fab trailer and it was only 15 minutes to rig the plane
by myself.

Those that have not had experience with that plane
should not be commenting.

Guy Acheson




I would agree that the Speed Astir (or Speed Disaster as some wags would
have it) is fairly good price/performance. I have a couple of flights in
OE that was for sale recently on the Wings&Wheels site. In fact, those
were my first flights in a glass single seater. I'd had maybe 50 hours
in the Twin Grob. The fact that both the Speed and I survived is proof
that it is an easy ship to fly.

No doubt about it being a solid ship. Heavily built. Very durable Grob
finish. Reasonably good handling. Excellent divebrakes. Accelerates like
it has jets when the flaps come up. Seemed to climb reasonably well,
considering the weight of the ship. I have always thought the flexible
flap hinge was a neat idea (but maybe a solution in search of a
problem), no bothersome mylar seals anyway. The wings are stiff so it's
a bumpy ride in rough air. Wings are a bit heavy, but no worse than a
LS-3. One man rigger would be a big plus. My biggest complaint is that
it can be hard to work on the instruments with the panel back under the
fixed forward section of the canopy. The cockpit, while relatively
roomy, is narrow at the hips due to the control system tunnels on either
side of the seat. One must be careful when the rear section of the
canopy is open. It will focus sunlight on the headrest and burn holes in
it.

With a good trailer, a Speed would be a contender for an affordable
glass ship. Price and trailer being equal, I'd rather have a PIK though.

Probably been mentioned before, but an LS-1, the F model being greatly
prized, are very fine ships (what LS isn't?).

"Guy Acheson" said:
have for the dollar. I had a one man rigging Minden
Fab trailer and it was only 15 minutes to rig the plane
by myself.


Is that true?, i´ve seen many times people rigging Grobs 102 (and i think
they have to be "a flap" easier to rig that the 104) and it use to be a
mess, until now i thought Grob was guilty for it, not the barbarian riggers,
and for me (and i think i´m not the only one) being able to rig alone the
ship quickly is the difference between flying or not flying, buying or not
buying.

An Empty Pocket schrieb:

"Guy Acheson" said:
have for the dollar. I had a one man rigging Minden
Fab trailer and it was only 15 minutes to rig the plane
by myself.


Is that true?, i´ve seen many times people rigging Grobs 102 (and i think
they have to be "a flap" easier to rig that the 104) and it use to be a
mess, until now i thought Grob was guilty for it, not the barbarian riggers,
and for me (and i think i´m not the only one) being able to rig alone the
ship quickly is the difference between flying or not flying, buying or not
buying.

I owned an G102 (Astir CS77) for several years. How long it takes to
rigg an Astir, depends on two aspects
- the glider, not every G102 is the same. Some are easier to rigg some
are a real pain. My CS77 was very easy to rigg, but i always had
problems getting the G102 of our Club together
- it depends on wheter you know what you are doing. With 3 person and a
wingstand it can be done in a few minutes
Ruediger