Top Gun CUNNINGHAM: I broke the law, concealed my conduct and disgraced my office.

Ed Rasimus wrote:
You might want to look beyond the media talking points. Even ANG
pilots are full time active duty for all of their UPT and operational
training. They then qualify for mission-ready in their unit of
assignment. GWB handled all of that for nearly five years.

It may be a media talking point to you, but it's true. W might have
been "mission ready" but only the most naive person in the world would
believe that he would have ever had to go. The man's whole life has
been one of privilege and benefit. John Kerry was also mission ready
and stepped up to the plate.

The flight physical issue is a red herring. His TX unit was
re-equipping with a different aircraft and a different mission. He
wasn't flying when he got attached to the Montgomery ANG unit which
was also transitioning from RF-84 to RF-4C and had NEITHER TYPE in
place at the period in question. In other words, no flying
opportunity, no requirement for a flight physical.

Doesn't sound "mission ready" to me. Are you saying that all the other
pilots in his unit skipped their physicals also?

The one with the Yale degree and the
Harvard MBA?

A legacy.

.. But, Harvard doesn't issue MBA's on legacy credentials.

And you know this how? Anyway, of course they don't issue them solely
on legacy credentials. In W's case, however, he relied on it.
Interestingly, one of W's B school profs recently reported that W was
not a good student but was not reluctant to remind everyone just who
his family was.

Or, is that somehow implying that flying military fighters is a simple
task? In combat?

Not saying it is simple, but it's not rocket science, either. He never
flew in combat...never even saw combat...never went to Nam (unlike his
last opponent).

No, he didn't go to Vietnam. At the time he went to UPT, the F-102
(from various ANG units) WAS being rotated through SEA and the
possibility for assignment existed. By the time he was operationally
ready, the aircraft was no longer being used in the limited mission it
had in SEA.

How convenient.

I've encountered some unsophisticated tactical aviators along the way,
and even some folks populating fighter cockpits who were in no way,
shape or form, qualified to carry the title, Fighter Pilot.

I didn't know you'd met W.

I haven't met him, but I'm a close friend of the guy who was GWB's
T-38 Instructor Pilot at in UPT. The guy flew F-105s with me as a 1/Lt
and we both went into the training business after our 100 missions
tours. He testifies to GWB's capabilities in the fighter business and
I've no reason to doubt him.

So, it's just a coincidence that some of his records have been lost
(like the DUI charges). Again, how convenient.

He's been to the White House twice in the
last three years on personal visits.

Oh, well then...


But I
don't know a single one that I would characterize as "profoundly
stupid".

You got any experience in that line?

No. Unlike you, I don't have any experience being profoundly stupid.

We might get some objective evaluators here in the news group to
validate that now. I think you don't give your experience enough
credit.

Actually, I don't need appraisal by others. My educational and
professional accomplishments are enough, thank you.

On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 18:06:14 GMT, Ed Rasimus wrote:

No. Unlike you, I don't have any experience being profoundly stupid.

We might get some objective evaluators here in the news group to
validate that now. I think you don't give your experience enough
credit.

Aren't you supposed to make some type of "fox" call before releasing
live ordnance?...

--

-Jeff B.
zoomie at fastmail dot fm

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 7 Jul 2006 18:56:52 -0500, "Dan Luke"
wrote:


"Duke" Cunningham is living proof that a profoundly stupid man can be a
fighter pilot and get elected to high office.

That's news?

Lemme see, is that a reference to the incumbent president? The one who
spent three times as long in military service and qualified to fly
single-seat, single-engine jets? The one with the Yale degree and the
Harvard MBA?

Or, is that somehow implying that flying military fighters is a simple
task? In combat?

I've encountered some unsophisticated tactical aviators along the way,
and even some folks populating fighter cockpits who were in no way,
shape or form, qualified to carry the title, Fighter Pilot. But I
don't know a single one that I would characterize as "profoundly
stupid".

You got any experience in that line?

I do a simple comparison for my students:

80,000 and change -- number of carrier aviators since Wilbur and Orville,
all nations
500,000 -- number of combat forces, all US services
700,000 -- number of MD's in the U.S.
1,000,000+ -- number of lawyers in the U.S. .... How hard can it be?

A combat aviator must combine quick reactions, extraordinary spatial
awareness, exceptional hand/eye coordination, mastery of a significant body
of knowledge, and superior decision making skills. More like a surgeon than
a dumb jock. Big difference? When the surgeon screws up, the patient dies.
When the aviator screws up, it's HIS (sometimes her) family that gets to
attend a funeral/memorial service.

R / John

On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 17:15:25 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote in
::

On Fri, 7 Jul 2006 18:56:52 -0500, "Dan Luke"
wrote:


"Duke" Cunningham is living proof that a profoundly stupid man can be a
fighter pilot and get elected to high office.

That's news?

Lemme see, is that a reference to the incumbent president? The one who
spent three times as long in military service and qualified to fly
single-seat, single-engine jets? The one with the Yale degree and the
Harvard MBA?


Word is he was a 'C' average student. Despite his Harvard MBA, baby
Bush's Arab funded oil exploration company was a failure. Word is
that he ran all his business ventures into the ground* at some point.
While he may have been privileged enough to qualify to fly a jet
fighter, he saw no combat in the TANG, and apparently left his duty
early to campaign for a politician. And while he may be an incumbent
president, he wasn't elected to both terms.

* http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capit...s?bid=3&pid=21

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:

And while he may be an incumbent
president, he wasn't elected to both terms.

get over it.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

("Larry Dighera" wrote)
And while he may be an incumbent president, he wasn't elected to both
terms.


http://advertising.yahoo.com/adverti...icon_poll.html
Good luck figuring out the ballot.

"Kool-Aid Man" appears to be your choice!


Montblack
NAC (Necessary Aviation Content)
I ordered a (Free) Jolly Green Giant kite when I was a kid - late '60's.
IIRC, the thing was huge ...to an eight year old.

Or more correctly that even a great man can become corrupt and do
stupid things.

-Robert



Dan Luke wrote:
"Duke" Cunningham is living proof that a profoundly stupid man can be a
fighter pilot and get elected to high office.

That's news?

Robert M. Gary wrote:
Or more correctly that even a great man can become corrupt and do
stupid things.

Robert, this can hardly be the case in Duke's case - he was only a
"great man" in his own eyes. I know people who worked with him during
his very first political campaign and as recently as today, we had a
discussion about what he was like back then. A few words that stand
out from the conversation we

Braggart
bull-headed
bully
pushy
self-centered


Plus a few words that went far beyond that. A 'great man' he never
was. A SH pilot, once.

v/r
Gordon

Gordon wrote:
Braggart
bull-headed
bully
pushy
self-centered

Sounds like he met the minimum quals for a great fighter pilot.

-Robert

Robert M. Gary wrote:
Gordon wrote:
Braggart
bull-headed
bully
pushy
self-centered

Sounds like he met the minimum quals for a great fighter pilot.


I'd disagree, Robert - I've known quite a few, had breakfast with
approximately 30 fighter and combat pilots this morning, and I can
honestly say that there is the smallest percentage that I'd discribe as
I did Cunningham. He takes the qualities of a fighter pilot and
discards the best of them, making a mockery of the work ethic,
dedication, and professionalism that exemplify the breed. A lot of
fighter pilots brag, primarily because they have something to brag
about. I think of Bud Anderson -- "Call me Andy, my friends do." --
described by Chuck Yeager as "the best fighter pilot". Anderson is
caring, quiet, introspective, self-effacing. None of the descriptors I
used for Cunningham would be remotely applicable to Col. Anderson.
Real fighter pilots have little in common with 'Maverick'; I remember
sitting in that movie with about a dozen other Navy flyers and the
concensus was that any "****BIRD" like him would be grounded and
drummed out. There are many things in that movie that made us laugh or
just shake our heads, but the whole speech by CAG about what a FU
Maverick was, but he still 'had' to send him to Top Gun was beyond
ludicrous. The real Maverick would have been sent TAD as a Supply
Officer or given command of a BEQ someplace. I watched (and
participated) in circumstances that ended poor Navy aviator's careers.
Maverick was a myth - Cunningham was a cautionary tale for why Mav
should remain a myth.

v/r
Gordon