Scottish Glider Crash

Mal: I already have a personal ELT. I was referring to the Powers that
Be, like some SSA contest organizers, who insist that an ELT be
installed "in the glider".

2NO

Although I fly with an ELT, they are not a guarantee that the aircraft will
be found because of it.

I am a member of a Search and Rescue team and have been involved with the
finding of a number of downed aircraft. The two cases where the ELT
survived the crash was where the crash was next to the airport, and were not
needed.

In the fatal air crashes I have been at, the ELT was destroyed and the
aircraft was only found with old fashioned search techniques. In one case,
the largest piece of the ELT was the size of a quarter.

If you are going to install an ELT, and expect it to survive a crash, it
must be installed so that it will survive, remembering that the antenna, the
feedline and the mounting are all part of the critical installation.

Just as important as the ELT is to let someone know where you are. Regular
communication during a flight with someone to update on your location and
intended flight path can be critical.

The chance of finding someone lost is greatly improved if the searchers know
where to start looking. If they do not have that information, it is like
looking for a needle in a haystack.

Colin

IMHO the Scottish incident is a good example of one accident that would
have benefitted from an ELT - the glider was mostly intact and the
pilot injured but incapacitated.

While I'm also agreeing they should not be not compulsory for all
gliders - training ships and twirlybirds don't need them - an ELT would
be a wise investment for pilots flying alone over inhospitable terrain.

Also filing a flight plan would not be a bad idea for flights like
this. I wonder why more glider pilots don't do this - it doesn't cost
anything!

Mike

Mike the Strike wrote:

While I'm also agreeing they should not be not compulsory for all
gliders - training ships and twirlybirds don't need them - an ELT would
be a wise investment for pilots flying alone over inhospitable terrain.
Mike

Breitling Watches makes a model called the "Emergency"
which can broadcast on 121.5, it is designed for just this type
of situation. Small and easy to carry in a glider.

Willie G.

I'm sure most are already aware, the "standard" 121.5 / 243 Mhz ELT will no
longer trigger SARSAT / COPAS after 2008. So when we are talking PLB's, they
are 406 MHz and some have built in GPS too. For a comparison, see:

http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/406vs121.pdf

bumper


"COLIN LAMB" wrote in message
ink.net...
Although I fly with an ELT, they are not a guarantee that the aircraft
will be found because of it.

I am a member of a Search and Rescue team and have been involved with the
finding of a number of downed aircraft. The two cases where the ELT
survived the crash was where the crash was next to the airport, and were
not needed.

In the fatal air crashes I have been at, the ELT was destroyed and the
aircraft was only found with old fashioned search techniques. In one
case, the largest piece of the ELT was the size of a quarter.

If you are going to install an ELT, and expect it to survive a crash, it
must be installed so that it will survive, remembering that the antenna,
the feedline and the mounting are all part of the critical installation.

Just as important as the ELT is to let someone know where you are.
Regular communication during a flight with someone to update on your
location and intended flight path can be critical.

The chance of finding someone lost is greatly improved if the searchers
know where to start looking. If they do not have that information, it is
like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Colin

bumper wrote:
I'm sure most are already aware, the "standard" 121.5 / 243 Mhz ELT will no
longer trigger SARSAT / COPAS after 2008. So when we are talking PLB's, they
are 406 MHz and some have built in GPS too. For a comparison, see:

Relatively recently I was in a position where an ELT could have helped a
lot. As a consequence, I did a serious 'net search last year for
information about the use and purchase of ELTs in the UK. I found two
sources of 243/121.5 MHz ELTs here and nothing at all on 406 MHz ELTs
intended for aviation use.

Now, I've read that the 2008 change over to 406 MHz ELTs is intended to
be world-wide so I'm a bit perturbed by the lack of information or
devices in the UK. If the changeover affects the UK, I'm rather
unwilling to buy a 243 MHz system that will be phased out in a year.

Has anybody heard anything definite about a 406 MHz change-over in the UK?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

"Now, I've read that the 2008 change over to 406 MHz ELTs is intended to
be world-wide so I'm a bit perturbed by the lack of information or
devices in the UK. If the changeover affects the UK, I'm rather
unwilling to buy a 243 MHz system that will be phased out in a year.

Has anybody heard anything definite about a 406 MHz change-over in the UK?"

The changeover, in effect, will be worldwide. That is because the
satellites that locate the 121.5 beacon and report approximate locations
will shut down. This is the main thrust of the change. The 406 MHz signals
may or may not have gps tied in.

However, the newer beacons will continue to have a 121.5 MHz beacon for
ground searchers to locate the device. It will be lower power, however.
The older beacons will not be declared illegal and still can be used for
radiolocation - however no satellite coverage. In flat terrain, the older
ELTs might still be useful - as long as someone is looking in the general
area. Passing aircraft will still be able to hear your beacon.

Last time I looked, I found no mention of the 243 MHz signal requirement on
the new beacons, so I expect that is going away. I think that was based
upon military requirements and that has gone away.

Colin

COLIN LAMB wrote:
"Now, I've read that the 2008 change over to 406 MHz ELTs is intended to
be world-wide so I'm a bit perturbed by the lack of information or
devices in the UK. If the changeover affects the UK, I'm rather
unwilling to buy a 243 MHz system that will be phased out in a year.

Has anybody heard anything definite about a 406 MHz change-over in the UK?"

The changeover, in effect, will be worldwide. That is because the
satellites that locate the 121.5 beacon and report approximate locations
will shut down. This is the main thrust of the change. The 406 MHz signals
may or may not have gps tied in.

However, the newer beacons will continue to have a 121.5 MHz beacon for
ground searchers to locate the device. It will be lower power, however.
The older beacons will not be declared illegal and still can be used for
radiolocation - however no satellite coverage. In flat terrain, the older
ELTs might still be useful - as long as someone is looking in the general
area. Passing aircraft will still be able to hear your beacon.

Last time I looked, I found no mention of the 243 MHz signal requirement on
the new beacons, so I expect that is going away. I think that was based
upon military requirements and that has gone away.

Thanks for the confirmation, but who is selling aircraft-rated 406MHz
ELTs in the UK and where can I find out how to register one?

I found references to floating, boatie type 406 MHz EPIRBs that activate
on immersion but not one with impact activation.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Update:

From latest photos available online it looks as if the engine was
deployed. It makes one wonder if he got into the usual trap of
motorised gliders of relying on the motor to get him out of a tricky
situation just too late for it to be effective.

I also wonder about the usefulness of a sustainer engine for retrieves
other than in flat quiet air. Several folks flying in the US west have
rejected them because of their poor power in high density altitudes.
Also they wouldn't help you if you hit a long run of 10-knot sink that
we sometimes see. I wonder if the mountain conditions he encountered
were just too much for the engine?

I also wonder if having the engine resulted in a mind-set that no ELT
would be necessary as the glider can always motor home?

BGA report awaited with interest!


Mike the Strike wrote:

From the accident scene photos, it doesn't appear the engine was
deployed. It'll be interesting to hear the details of this one.

BBC News Scotland has reports and video available online.

Mike

At 16:06 16 July 2006, Martin Gregorie wrote:
wrote:
The Minden Soaring Club webpage recently published
an article written
by Pepe Gresa, from Spain, on the exactly this subject
matter:

http://mindensoaringclub.com/int2/in...com_content&ta
sk=view&id=73&Itemid=5

The article is informative, and stresses the fact
that ELT's do save
lives...

That's a good article, though the Filser link emphasizes
the point I was
making: both their ELTs are 121.5 and 243 MHz. No mention
of 406 MHz
transmitters.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

The Wings and Wheels site has some good information
about the current ELT situation and some of the practical
issues regarding the newer 406MHz units - at:

http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page13.htm

To my mind none of the currently available fixed 406
units are ideal but it seems likely that more practical
(and hopefully cheaper) models will appear over the
next couple of years. Until then I will stick with
my 121.5/243 MHz Filser ELT2.

John Galloway