Plane shopping

In article ,
Greg Copeland wrote:

A guy on our field has a PA28 for sale (Cherokee). I think its a good
value for what I think you can get it for. I'm not involved with the
owner (ie: i'm not getting commission)... but i did own the plane at
one time.

Thanks, but I'm really wanting a PA28-180...

What do you think a PA28-180 is?

-----Original Message-----
From: john smith ]
Posted At: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 21:36
Posted To: rec.aviation.owning
Conversation: Plane shopping
Subject: Plane shopping

In article ,
Greg Copeland wrote:

A guy on our field has a PA28 for sale (Cherokee). I think its a
good
value for what I think you can get it for. I'm not involved with
the
owner (ie: i'm not getting commission)... but i did own the plane
at
one time.

Thanks, but I'm really wanting a PA28-180...

What do you think a PA28-180 is?
[Jim Carter]

Couldn't it be a PA28-140 (Cherokee 140) or a PA28-180 (Cherokee 180) or
a PA28-235 (Cherokee 235)? To describe the aircraft as only a PA28
leaves a little bit unknown doesn't it?

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 02:36:07 +0000, john smith wrote:

In article ,
Greg Copeland wrote:

A guy on our field has a PA28 for sale (Cherokee). I think its a good
value for what I think you can get it for. I'm not involved with the
owner (ie: i'm not getting commission)... but i did own the plane at
one time.

Thanks, but I'm really wanting a PA28-180...

What do you think a PA28-180 is?

This was confusion created by me. I simply stated PA28 series but in my
mind I was thinking PA28-180 or 181 (heavy leaning). He was kind enough
to offer some information based on what I vaguely referenced. Clealy a
PA28-140 falls into the PA28 series of planes.

In a nut shell, I was not more precise because I didn't believe it was
germane to the thrust of my post. As usual here...leave an opening and
someone will find a way to prove the poster wrong.

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 09:10:46 -0400, Dave Butler wrote:

While there seems to be a wealth of plane information, I'm having trouble
finding information on various avionics. Is there a place you guys can
point me? What brands to stay away from? What brands are preferred? I
know enough to know I want a plane that already has the avionics I want.
The problem is, I don't know enough about the brands to have any sense of
general worth or reliability.

http://www.avionix.com Look for "Avionics Guidebook"


I'm just now following the link. That looks like good stuff! Thanks!

Greg

1. Subscribe to Tradeaplane. Learn how to use appraiser.
2. Find plane
3. Call buyer, get N-number and ownership info. Negotiate price.
(Buyers market right now--offers of 20% off or more are common). Agree
on price and delivery if plane meets your specs (especially
avionics--they are expensive)
4. Contact A&P on the field and tell him to give plane a compression
check, look for metal in oil filter and check for corrosion and look a
the logs. 3 hours max. Make SURE you get a compression check.
5. If plane passes A&P and looks promising, do a title search through
aircraft title company (AOPA).
6. Fly or drive to airplane. Check out paint, upholstry, avionics and
condtion. Fly airplane. If it's ok, buy it and take delivery (usually
the owner or someone he hires will deliver, but whatever you can
arrange). If you can arrange it, fly it back yourself (probably with a
CFI).
7. Enjoy (and spend)


Don't you think you should hold off on "negotiating" the price until
AFTER the pre-buy, log check, title search, and personal look over? If I
were selling and you called to negotiate price sight unseen I would
politely end the conversation.

Without inspections, searches, etc. what is there to negotiate?

Opinions vary,
Mike

According to schedule, I anticipate to be in the market for something like
an Archer II (most likely) or an Archer III around the end of the year.
I've been drooling on various shoping rags for about a year now. As such
I have several questions. Hopefully you won't mind answering!

Is plane shopping in any way (down south - Texas) influenced by season?

Generally it is pretty slow selling during the winter up North. There
may be no difference in the South.
What type of lead time should I expect in shopping for a plane? Is this
typically a one month effort or so or possibly many, many months trying to
find a good deal on a good plane?
Depends on what you are looking for. If you want a plane right now, I'm
sure you can find some piece of junk to buy soon. There are plenty of
them out there. A decent Archer can be had quickly if you have the
money. Trying to find a decent plane for the lowest possible cost can
take a year.

I figure in a state as large as Texas (with OK, and LA not too
far away), on a fairly common plane like an Archer, finding one shouldn't
be too hard. Am I being naive here?

Depends. Like I said, there are a lot of junk airplanes for sale all
over the country. The odds of finding the one you want locally are slim
if you have specifics in mind.

My list is pretty specific and would look like this: 78 Archer II, 2500
hours TT or less, 500 hours SMOH or less (and less than 6 years SINCE
major) by a well known shop, digital display avionics (King KX 155s or
Narco MK12Ds), at least 1 glideslope, marker beacons, 4 place intercom,
2 navcoms, preferably an approach certified color moving map GPS in the
panel, late model transponder, professionally redone interior and paint
(with no ridiculous clown car colors), no corrosion, little or no damage
history, meticulous maintenance, NO AIR CONDITIONING, no junk avionics,
no top overhauls, less than 70 grand.

While there seems to be a wealth of plane information, I'm having trouble
finding information on various avionics. Is there a place you guys can
point me? What brands to stay away from? What brands are preferred? I
know enough to know I want a plane that already has the avionics I want.
The problem is, I don't know enough about the brands to have any sense of
general worth or reliability.

Generally the digital readout avionics are sufficiently new to be legal
and reliable. Original equipment in 70s era planes are getting pretty
long in the tooth.
Another pilot offered to give me a plane buyer's book of some type which
talks about the over all process. As I get a little closer I figure I'll
get the book which talk about buying a Piper PA28 series of planes. I'll
have to google for the book name. This all sound like I'm heading down
the right path?
Is your credit lined up? Do you have 80-90 grand to purchase a ready to
go Archer in good shape? Do you have about $800 per month to gas it,
park it, insure it, repair it?

My father is an experienced plane buyer so I won't be doing this alone.
Just the same, I want to learn as much as I can. This sound like I'm
heading in the right direction?

Who's money is it? Are you bound to his decisions? Family members can be
terrible to work with on something like an airplane purchase. I have
seen family wars started over less. Use caution.

Good Luck,
Mike

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 18:22:20 +0000, Mike Spera wrote:

[snpi]
Depends on what you are looking for. If you want a plane right now, I'm
sure you can find some piece of junk to buy soon. There are plenty of
them out there. A decent Archer can be had quickly if you have the
money. Trying to find a decent plane for the lowest possible cost can
take a year.

Ouch. I'm not necessarily looking to find the best possible price. I am
looking to find a reasonable deal. I understand those wonderful deals do
come along...I'm just want willing to wait the year or two to find it.
That, of course, does not mean I'm looking for a rattle trap, junker. And
no, I'm not looking to buy the first plane that comes along. That's just
silly.

My list is pretty specific and would look like this: 78 Archer II, 2500
hours TT or less, 500 hours SMOH or less (and less than 6 years SINCE
major) by a well known shop, digital display avionics (King KX 155s or
Narco MK12Ds), at least 1 glideslope, marker beacons, 4 place intercom,
2 navcoms, preferably an approach certified color moving map GPS in the
panel, late model transponder, professionally redone interior and paint
(with no ridiculous clown car colors), no corrosion, little or no damage
history, meticulous maintenance, NO AIR CONDITIONING, no junk avionics,
no top overhauls, less than 70 grand.

Sounds like a pretty good list ot me! Thanks.

[snip]
generally the digital readout avionics are sufficiently new to be legal
and reliable. Original equipment in 70s era planes are getting pretty
long in the tooth.

Thanks. That's what I suspected.

Another pilot offered to give me a plane buyer's book of some type which
talks about the over all process. As I get a little closer I figure I'll
get the book which talk about buying a Piper PA28 series of planes. I'll
have to google for the book name. This all sound like I'm heading down
the right path?
Is your credit lined up? Do you have 80-90 grand to purchase a ready to
go Archer in good shape? Do you have about $800 per month to gas it,
park it, insure it, repair it?

I'm still exploring all the costs but I think I have a pretty
understanding of what it takes.


Greg

It can be done both ways. But if you negotiate before you inspect, you
negotiate off of HIS description of the plane. If it meets the
condition HE describes you will pay so much, etc.....

Mike Spera wrote:
1. Subscribe to Tradeaplane. Learn how to use appraiser.
2. Find plane
3. Call buyer, get N-number and ownership info. Negotiate price.
(Buyers market right now--offers of 20% off or more are common). Agree
on price and delivery if plane meets your specs (especially
avionics--they are expensive)
4. Contact A&P on the field and tell him to give plane a compression
check, look for metal in oil filter and check for corrosion and look a
the logs. 3 hours max. Make SURE you get a compression check.
5. If plane passes A&P and looks promising, do a title search through
aircraft title company (AOPA).
6. Fly or drive to airplane. Check out paint, upholstry, avionics and
condtion. Fly airplane. If it's ok, buy it and take delivery (usually
the owner or someone he hires will deliver, but whatever you can
arrange). If you can arrange it, fly it back yourself (probably with a
CFI).
7. Enjoy (and spend)


Don't you think you should hold off on "negotiating" the price until
AFTER the pre-buy, log check, title search, and personal look over? If I
were selling and you called to negotiate price sight unseen I would
politely end the conversation.

Without inspections, searches, etc. what is there to negotiate?

Opinions vary,
Mike

Greg, I do not recall if you told us what your flying experience is?
Having an idea as to what you have flown and the type of flying your
have done and expect to do can will allow some posters to provide other
recommendations.

On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 16:26:31 +0000, john smith wrote:

Greg, I do not recall if you told us what your flying experience is?
Having an idea as to what you have flown and the type of flying your
have done and expect to do can will allow some posters to provide other
recommendations.

I'm a freshly minted pilot. I expect to have 100+ hours by the end of
the year. I have flown 172s (P, K, and S models), a PA28-180 and a
PA28-161. Not exactly a large cross section. But then again, I really
don't want to own some something which isn't fairly mainstream (Cessna,
Piper, Mooney, etc).

Greg