insane IMC

And as far as I'm concerned, there is no VFR flying at night if
you're smart (at least around here).

Why? And where is "around here"?

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
And as far as I'm concerned, there is no VFR flying at night if
you're smart (at least around here).

Why? And where is "around here"?


North Carolina. I made the mistake of trying to navigate by pilotage at night
once very early in my career. I misidentified a waypoint and ended up out over
the ocean... next stop Bermuda... thinking I was still out over the sparsely
populated fields in coastal Carolina. (I did wonder about how dark it was...
like I said, I was new with probably 60-70 hours total).

Perhaps I misstated myself... I shouldn't have equated IFR with radio
navigation. OTOH, with the crappy visibility right now, it really is IFR at
night. Personally, I always file IFR for night flights. If something goes
wrong I want to already be talking to someone.

As an aside, ALL night flight in the Bahamas is conducted under IFR. That's
some dark flying, especially in a single. Nothing but your wits, your engine
and your sphincter to keep you out of the water. G




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

"Napoleon Dynamite" wrote in message
ups.com...
[...]
I think this is insane, but how can one build actual
IMC experience without getting killed? Am I toying with my life in a
172 with no onboard weather equipment? Am I going to get more
confident? How many hours of actual IMC did YOU require before you
could relax and think clearly in the soup?Any thoughts appreciated.

Yes, it's insane. As Mortimer says, just be patient and more reasonable IFR
weather will come along. I have even seen fog in the summer in North
Carolina, and certainly by the time September or later comes around, you
should start to see your fair share of stratus (whether low-level fog or
just overcast) in which to fly.

Don't go around flying near thunderstorms, or in IMC when you don't know
*for a fact* that there are no thunderstorms nearby. The apprehension
you're feeling need not be overcome. Listen to it, and stay away from those
thunderstorms.

Now, that said, you will on occasion find yourself flying in bumpy
conditions without a risk of thunderstorms, and that does add to the
workload a bit if you're IMC. But it won't be nearly as stressful as what
you're doing now, and once you've exercised some patience and gotten some
IMC experience in smoother weather, the bumps (without thunderstorms) won't
seem so bad.

Pete

"Napoleon Dynamite" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hello Folks



I live and fly in North Carolina. I am a 150-hour
private pilot about to take my instrument checkride.I need some help
overcoming my apprehension regarding IMC.
90 percent of my actual IMC has been after work,in the
hot summer months, in the dark dodging thunderstorm cells on x-country
flights.The approach controllers can't see the weather, just yesterday
they told us we were in a thunder cell while were were in VMC, 3 miles,
haze. Another time, while getting bounced near a towering cumulus
illuminated by lightning, an approach controller responded to our
request for cloud top info with a " ah..we're closed, contact Seymour
Johnson approach on their frequency."
I think this is insane, but how can one build actual
IMC experience without getting killed? Am I toying with my life in a
172 with no onboard weather equipment? Am I going to get more
confident? How many hours of actual IMC did YOU require before you
could relax and think clearly in the soup?Any thoughts appreciate

It sounds like (to me) that you are the kind of pilot that the Garmin 396
and 496 with XM downlink is made for.

Get rid of the fear of running into a TV tower. Get rid of the fear of
running into a mountain. Get rid of the fear of not knowing where the worst
of the thunderstorms are at.

Getting your IFR so soon sounds like you want to be able to go somewhere,
without worrying about the weather. A downlink with all of the information
you need would be a very good investment over the long run. You will use it
often, and miss the utility of not having it.
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:
"Napoleon Dynamite" wrote in message

90 percent of my actual IMC has been after work,in the
hot summer months, in the dark dodging thunderstorm cells on x-country
flights.The approach controllers can't see the weather, just yesterday
they told us we were in a thunder cell while were were in VMC, 3 miles,
haze. Another time, while getting bounced near a towering cumulus
illuminated by lightning, an approach controller responded to our
request for cloud top info with a " ah..we're closed, contact Seymour
Johnson approach on their frequency."
I think this is insane, but how can one build actual
IMC experience without getting killed? Am I toying with my life in a
172 with no onboard weather equipment? Am I going to get more
confident? How many hours of actual IMC did YOU require before you
could relax and think clearly in the soup?Any thoughts appreciate


It sounds like (to me) that you are the kind of pilot that the Garmin 396
and 496 with XM downlink is made for.

I agree. I learned and flew IFR in the RDU area for the past 7 years.
The 396 is a real game changer for light a/c in the SE US
Get rid of the fear of running into a TV tower. Get rid of the fear of
running into a mountain. Get rid of the fear of not knowing where the worst
of the thunderstorms are at.
Perhaps a bit overstated - fear is good, don't get rid of it - turn it
into respect but don't depend on the the 396. Just use it. (I'm not
disagreeing ith Morgans - just restating it)

Getting your IFR so soon sounds like you want to be able to go somewhere,
without worrying about the weather. A downlink with all of the information
you need would be a very good investment over the long run. You will use it
often, and miss the utility of not having it.
The more you go, the more you will worry, but that's the game. The more
information you have the better. The 396 is a game changer.

Flying at night in convective conditions is not fun, usually. One of my
most satisfying flights was from Norfolk to Charlotte circumnavigating a
stationary line of T-storms streching from south of Norfold to North of
Chalotte. I filed and flew but never went IMC. I used Cheap*******
(predecessor to the 396) to eyeball the line ahead and used lightening
to light up the clouds. Always had airport beacons in sight. When I
penetrated through a broken spot in the line over Greensboro, the
controllers and other late night fliers wondered what the hell was I
doing there - it was before any 'lil Maule would have downlinked weather
except for Cheap******* and I"m not sure a Strikefinder would have done
it for me that night. With the radar downlink, the flight was never in
doubt but a lot of fun - and worth it.

Anyway, we have some great practice conditions around here on mornings
that start with obscured ceilings and lift thru 200, 500 then 1000 feet
before burning off into dotted Cu. Nothing like practicing in improving
conditions! They are morning conditions - not uncommon in summer but
more frequent in Spring and Fall. A great way to practice actual - but
they are morning conditions.

The most challenging (dangerous) actual conditions I've found here
(other than T-storms which you simply shouldn't be in) are hazy evenings
with the dewpoint and actual temp closing in on each other. ATIS will
say 500' and 2 miles and you will end up with obscured and .5 miles.
And it can stay that way for several hours. You really need range
enough to get where those conditions aren't. And we all need to get
home in the evenings - that's when the ticket pays off.

The 396 is worth its weight in gold if you are using your ticket in
actual to actually get somewhere. Night with T-storms is not
recommended but the fact is, it's doable with reasonable safety at
times. But you can't be entirely dependent on ATC to do it, even in the
daytime. Seeing convective clouds is required. Calibrating your
eyeballs with the 396 and looking 'within' and behind the clouds seems
like quantum leap in light a/c flight.

It sounds like (to me) that you are the kind of pilot that the Garmin 396
and 496 with XM downlink is made for.
I agree. I learned and flew IFR in the RDU area for the past 7 years. The 396 is a real game changer for light a/c in the SE US

I take strong issue with that. The =conditions= are what the weather
downlink are great for. However, a pilot that has little VFR
experience, that then becomes an IFR rated pilot and wants(*) more
gadgets in the cockpit so he can fly "weather" is a dangerous one,
because (1) he hasn't learned to look out the window FIRST AND FOREMOST.
That is what lots of VFR experiences does, and I question the wisdom,
especially now, of allowing people to pursue and get instrument ratings
too early in their career, and (2) he's looking for electronics to
replace judgement. While electronics are a great aid to avoiding
weather, it would appear that this "ideal pilot for the 496 downlink"
would be looking for weather.

(*) I know the OP is not this kind of pilot.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote in
t:

It sounds like (to me) that you are the kind of pilot that the
Garmin 396 and 496 with XM downlink is made for.
I agree. I learned and flew IFR in the RDU area for the past 7
years. The 396 is a real game changer for light a/c in the SE US

I take strong issue with that. The =conditions= are what the weather
downlink are great for. However, a pilot that has little VFR
experience, that then becomes an IFR rated pilot and wants(*) more
gadgets in the cockpit so he can fly "weather" is a dangerous one,
because (1) he hasn't learned to look out the window FIRST AND
FOREMOST.
That is what lots of VFR experiences does, and I question the
wisdom,
especially now, of allowing people to pursue and get instrument
ratings too early in their career, and (2) he's looking for
electronics to replace judgement. While electronics are a great aid
to avoiding weather, it would appear that this "ideal pilot for the
496 downlink" would be looking for weather.

(*) I know the OP is not this kind of pilot.

Jose

The 3/496 is the ideal "gadget" to keep a VFR pilot- VFR... After 2
cross countrys with one - 1 1200nm and 1 1600nm (@ ~105knots) I wouldnt
want to do a VFR cross country without one (not sure I'd want to do an
IFR CC without one either, but that's beyond my experience)

--
-- ET :-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

...However, a pilot that has little VFR
experience, that then becomes an IFR rated pilot and wants(*) more
gadgets in the cockpit so he can fly "weather" is a dangerous one,
because (1) he hasn't learned to look out the window FIRST AND FOREMOST.
That is what lots of VFR experiences does, and I question the wisdom,
especially now, of allowing people to pursue and get instrument ratings
too early in their career, and (2) he's looking for electronics to
replace judgement. ....

How do US airlines only hire pilots with 1500+ hours while in Europe,
airlines train zero time pilots up through heavy jets in one shot.
Granted these newbies will have an experienced pilot in the left seat
but even then, that's a whole lot of airplane in some extremely
challenging conditions.

I generally agree with you. For me, I don't have that much convective
activity in the Bay Area, California. And if there potentially is, I
don't go up.

Gerald

Small GA aircraft with no weather radar and no deice and no turbo are
marginal for flying in IMC. Trouble with IMC, not only can't you see
(manageable), there is all this BAD WEATHER. Just because you have an
IFR rating and an IFR airplane doesn't mean you can fly in THAT
weather. There are plenty of IFR conditions that are not safely flyable
by small GA aircraft.

I think this is insane, but how can one build actual
IMC experience without getting killed? Am I toying with my life in a
172 with no onboard weather equipment?

I don't want to sound unsympathetic, but I'm ancient enough to
remember when there was NO weather radar. We blundered into
thunderstorms occasionally and once I even flew through a hurricane
because it wasn't where it was "supposed" to be.

No, those were not the "good" old days. I was delighted to get an
airplane with a Stormscope, and now one with a Garmin 396 with wx.

But flying without them is not exaclty a death sentence. You just have
to be even more careful.

vince norris