UK Mode S. Our responce is required

Ian Strachan wrote:

As I understand it, ADS-B (Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast)
is a system based on Satellite Navigation that automatically transmits
GPS (or GLONASS or Galileo) position and other data from an aircraft to
other receivers in ATC units and/or other aircraft. It is being tested
by the USA FAA and also in Australia and certainly seems to be the
system of the future. Here is an extract from the FAA Fact Sheet dated
2 May 2006

That is still true in part for Australia but ASA (AirServices Oz) has
recently (about 20 July) withdrawn its RFP for lower airspace ADS-B.
Upper airspace appears to still be going ahead but the application of
ADS-B to ALL aircraft - the original aspiration - appears to have been
somewhat curtailed.

AFAIK there are no current suitable low power consumption airborne units
on the market and the ground station network being implemented will
probably not be as extensive as we'd hoped.

Obviously, widespread implementation in the US will have the same
trickledown effect worldwide as almost all other en route systems from
A-N ranges to GPS but there are problems. Avweb discussed some of these
- I'll see if I can find the reference.

This may not have helped your case

GC

Gilbert Smith wrote:
which he duly did. This caused a TCAS alert on a landing passenger
jet. Our agreement now specifies transponders switched off (not even
squawking standby) within 5 miles of our strip.

I'm already seeing further airspace restrictions once transponder usage
gets more widespread. Restrictions for "technical TCAS reasons"...

Regards
-Gerhard
--
http://gwesp.tx0.org/
Gerhard Wesp / Holderenweg 2 / CH-8134 Adliswil
+41 (0)76 505 1149 / +43 699 815 987 70 (mobile)
+41 (0)44 668 1878 (office)
+41 (0)44 200 1818 (office fax)

Dave,

The Sparrowhawk is so small that it presents an almost insignificant
collision hazard to a 737. Heck, the big jets bug-wipers should take care of
you handily!! (grin)

Okay, okay, I agree and use a transponder too. Also, I suspect I'm one of
only a few who use a TPAS (transponder passive alert system), a Proxalert R5
in my glider. It's comforting to know, as one approaches the bases of those
fluffy things, that a big airplane isn't nearby and going to descend out of
one to test his bug wipers on you.

all the best,

bumper


wrote in message
ups.com...
I have recently purchased a SparrowHawk glider which here in the US.
Since it weighs less than 155lbs operates under part 103 of the FARS as
an ultralight vehicle not requiring registration, a pilot license and
is transparent to County Tax authorities as are hangliders etc. I
operate close to Reno International Airport and very close to the
southern approach to that airport and have had airliners approach
within one half a mile of me apparently without knowledge of my
presence. This is unacceptabe and a collision must be avoided period.
So I stay clear the airspace where it is most probable to find an
airliner. That having been said I have on order a Becker Transponder
and will install in the SparrowHawk asap with a substantial battery so
that airliner's TAS can see me and take collision avoidance if
necessary.
I have followed the arguments and complaints against the use of
transponders in gliders and small planes and am not sympathetic! We are
all flying in crowded airspaces where there are the possibilities of
collisions and the deaths of many people say between an airliner and a
glider. This can be mostly prevented by the use of transponders, a
vigilant ATC and TAS. The cost - about $2000. How can any intelligent
person argue against that. Are some people so illiterate that they have
no appreciation about cost benefit analysis to not understand that this
is one of the best deals ever? What do you think is going to happen to
glider privileges after the first airliner is brought down? Remember
gliders are virtually invisible except when turning if at your
altitude!!
As to mode S. I am neutral to it. It does not increase safety. It
does allow near instant indentification of an aircraft which may be
useful to ATC - maybe? How will it affect me with the SparrowHawk? I
will probably have to be assigned a special ID.
Dave

bumper wrote:
Dave,

The Sparrowhawk is so small that it presents an almost insignificant
collision hazard to a 737. Heck, the big jets bug-wipers should take care of
you handily!! (grin)

Okay, okay, I agree and use a transponder too. Also, I suspect I'm one of
only a few who use a TPAS (transponder passive alert system), a Proxalert R5
in my glider. It's comforting to know, as one approaches the bases of those
fluffy things, that a big airplane isn't nearby and going to descend out of
one to test his bug wipers on you.

Or, for that matter, even a small airplane, since they are required to
carry transponders, too.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

C'mon - Why would gdubya send uavs out there to harass
the bga? Can't fault the europeans so blame the US.




At 06:18 04 August 2006, Derek Copeland wrote:
In the UK anything that flies anywhere in UK Airspace
will have to be fitted with Mode S transponders from
March 2008, if the Civil Aviation Authority gets its
way. This includes light aircraft, gliders, hang gliders,
balloons and probably even parascenders. There may,
at best be, a temporary exemption until suitable battery
powered equipment is available for non-powered aircraft.

For once we can't even blame Europe for this repressive
piece of legislation, as these requirements will only
apply for flying in the higher classes of controlled
airspace in the other EC Countries.

From a glider pilot's point of view, buying and fitting
this equipment is expensive - about £3000 (more than
many older and vintage gliders cost in total) , requires
a licence and regular skilled maintenance, will probably
require an extra dedicated battery to be fitted which
has to come out of our MAUW, and exposes us to fairly
continual 20 watt radio emissions that most glider
structures will not shield us from.

The justifications for this from the CAA include allowing
Airliners to detect us as they take short cuts through
Class G airspace to save fuel and make bigger profits
for their companies(although there is no suitable currently
available equipment beyond the Mark 1 eyeball for us
to detect them or any other aircraft), allowing them
to charge us for the use of airspace, separating out
false returns from windfarm turbines, and allowing
UAVs to roam around our countryside. As far as I know,
most of the latter are operated by the US Airforce,
so once again we are being screwed by the so-called
'special relationship' with the States, and our Prime
Minister Tony Blairs's refusal to say 'boo' to anything
George W asks for!

For the majority of glider pilots, these proposals
will mean the end of UK gliding. Please respond to
to CAA consultation document as per the link below
and write to politicians if you are in a position to
do so.

Derek Copeland


At 10:18 02 August 2006, Gail wrote:
See the BGA link below.

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/air...ansponders.htm


-|-
-----===()===-----


gAiL

C'mon - Why would gdubya send uavs out there to harass
the bga? Can't fault the europeans so blame the US.




At 06:18 04 August 2006, Derek Copeland wrote:
In the UK anything that flies anywhere in UK Airspace
will have to be fitted with Mode S transponders from
March 2008, if the Civil Aviation Authority gets its
way. This includes light aircraft, gliders, hang gliders,
balloons and probably even parascenders. There may,
at best be, a temporary exemption until suitable battery
powered equipment is available for non-powered aircraft.

For once we can't even blame Europe for this repressive
piece of legislation, as these requirements will only
apply for flying in the higher classes of controlled
airspace in the other EC Countries.

From a glider pilot's point of view, buying and fitting
this equipment is expensive - about £3000 (more than
many older and vintage gliders cost in total) , requires
a licence and regular skilled maintenance, will probably
require an extra dedicated battery to be fitted which
has to come out of our MAUW, and exposes us to fairly
continual 20 watt radio emissions that most glider
structures will not shield us from.

The justifications for this from the CAA include allowing
Airliners to detect us as they take short cuts through
Class G airspace to save fuel and make bigger profits
for their companies(although there is no suitable currently
available equipment beyond the Mark 1 eyeball for us
to detect them or any other aircraft), allowing them
to charge us for the use of airspace, separating out
false returns from windfarm turbines, and allowing
UAVs to roam around our countryside. As far as I know,
most of the latter are operated by the US Airforce,
so once again we are being screwed by the so-called
'special relationship' with the States, and our Prime
Minister Tony Blairs's refusal to say 'boo' to anything
George W asks for!

For the majority of glider pilots, these proposals
will mean the end of UK gliding. Please respond to
to CAA consultation document as per the link below
and write to politicians if you are in a position to
do so.

Derek Copeland


At 10:18 02 August 2006, Gail wrote:
See the BGA link below.

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/air...ansponders.htm


-|-
-----===()===-----


gAiL

------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroup: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: UK Mode S. Our response is required
Author: Ian Strachan
Date/Time: 13:20 07 August 2006
------------------------------------------------------------
On the general matter of aircraft location and proximity warning
systems, radar is essentially a product of World War II technology
whereas ADS-B is the future. ADS-B will provide air traffic controllers
and pilots with much more accurate information that will help keep
aircraft safely separated.

Those words come not from me, but from the US FAA.

------

The CAA mode S consultation, does look at the possibility of making Mode
S transponders, ADS future-proof as one option. However the CAA does not
go into much detail on this matter. Other than to identify costs without
a proven techonogical solution.

The CAA document seems to dismiss FLARM, a glider-glider GPS-based
anti-collision device out of hand, although the apparent prime objective
of the consultation is to allow unrestricted commercial traffic access
to class G airspace, sorry I meant collision-avoidance.

The CAA document does not even discuss other GPS-tracking options
already available eg the LX tracker. This has been used in several
gliding world championships and was used by 10 out of 40 gliders in
Euroglide this year.

See

http://www.euroglide.nl/news.html#itin

And

http://www.lxtrack.si/online/online-tracking/

Why should the CAA review the technology and benefits properly, if the
consultation is just a smoke-screen?

Rory

I don't feel very well informed on this subject. I do know what the
equpment is and I do know how it works.
What I'm finding difficult is understanding the pro and cons of the
argument - I suppose because I don't know the finer points of ATC.

I've been wadeing through the CAA's RIA document and reading other documents
and conversation to try and build a realistic picture of what this all
'really' means. The cost implications are of course, obvious. But it seems
to me that whatever increased safety features mode S may offer, for glider
pilots, it all seems pretty minimal; are the CAA really trying to claw more
control of unregulated airspace!? And who is really going to flying their
glider in airways and heavily regulated airspace anyway?

From what I can see, this technology appears to warn them (the powered
community) of us and I suppose offers them the opportunity of avoidance, but
doesn't seems to warn us of them. For this tit-bit we are expected to pay in
excess of £2k per glider.

I notice the CAA and the goverment clearly refuses to offer any funding for
this equipment in gliders and expects us to willingly pick up the bill.
personally, I'm happy with the European appraoch of only requiring users who
use A-d airspace the reponsibility of re-equiping with mode S.

G.

gAiL wrote:
See the BGA link below.

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/air...ansponders.htm


-|-
-----===()===-----


gAiL
Guys
Can someone explain to me the difference between Mode S and Mode C
transponders and why one is better or worse thaan the other?

TIA
George Emsden

With:

Mode A - - ATC knows you're there, can assign a discrete squawk code, but
doesn't know your altitude unless you tell them on the radio.

Mode C - - ATC has the above info, and your altitude as well.

Mode S - - ATC has all the above info, and also exactly who you are, as your
aircraft/transponder is pre-assigned a discrete identifying code. i.e. No
more, "Huh, who me? I didn't fly there and do that!"

bumper

"kestrel254" wrote in message
oups.com...

gAiL wrote:
See the BGA link below.

http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/air...ansponders.htm


-|-
-----===()===-----


gAiL
Guys
Can someone explain to me the difference between Mode S and Mode C
transponders and why one is better or worse thaan the other?

TIA
George Emsden