Class A airspace

One more thing to consider is that loggers have errors as much as 500ft
at these altitudes, and without seeing the logger calibration data it
is not possible to determine if the glider was in class A airspace. We
shouldn't penetrate class A airspace, (I had to open spoilers recently
to avoid it, as flying at 120 knots wouldn't do) but no doubt anyone
who flies without a transponder, although it is legal, is posing much
higher risk to commercial traffic then someone with a transponder who
accidentally brush class A....

Ramy

flying_monkey wrote:
SAM 303a wrote:
What is your point? That we need another set of watchdogs?
We shouldn't condone or copy the behaviour you've identified, but I don't
see how it benefits the sport to point it out to the authorities or make a
stink on RAS.
I bet with a little Googling you could find contact info for The Offender.
If you feel so strongly why don't you contact The Offender?

Geez! I'm not trying to point this out to the authorities, or make any
kind of stink. Oh, yeah, I know that the FAA folks probably read this,
but I bet they'd be a lot more impressed if we started policing this
widely ourselves as a group. We all need to police ourselves so that
we don't break the rules, and on the remote chance that we do, we don't
advertise it to the world. A little peer pressure would work wonders
here. Contacting the offender directly wouldn't do this. It might
correct this one instance, and get that one flight claim retracted, but
if the word is spread wider, maybe people will think before they
infringe or post.

Ed

flying_monkey wrote:
The flights I'm talking about both show that they have pressure
altitude sensors. The two airports I checked in the area both showed
baro readings of around 29.82 at the time being examined in the flight,
which could account for 100' of error. But, the takeoff altitudes
match the takeoff airport elevation within 57' at most. The GPS
altitudes reported were as high as 19,000 ft, while the highest
pressure altitude reported was near 18,500. I'm removing one of those
particular flights from my consideration, as the overage was probably
only about 34 feet, and I could easily imagine that his altimeter was
off by that much. The other flight, though, would have almost
certainly indicated as high as 18,400. That's an obvious violation.
But what I'm really curious about is why SeeYou doesn't report this as
a violation when that function is activated.

1. Do you know the pilot didn't have clearance?

2. Are you aware of the size of potential altimeter errors at high
altitudes? The altimeter used for inflight reference could easily
have indicated 400' lower than the baro reference you see on OLC.

3. Fly your own ship.


Jack

On 6/5/06 Peter Klose from the SFV Mannheim club
flying a Nimbus 3DM D-KTTT out of Parowan, Utah had
such a large error in his logger that he went to 19,180.

The OLC should pull his flight until he provides
a calibration chart to verify that much error. It
would be bad enough if someday some lawless U.S. pilot
causes us to loose the airspace privledges we currently
enjoy.
I'm sure if a U.S. pilot flying in Germany disregarded
their airspace limitations, he would quickly be excused
from further flight.
For those who would say that maybe he had a clearence.
That should have been included in the remarks section
of the flight claim. I'm sure we have some glider
pilot in that area who would have been able to verify
it with ATC.

2. Are you aware of the size of potential altimeter
errors at high
altitudes? The altimeter used for inflight reference
could easily
have indicated 400' lower than the baro reference you
see on OLC.

3. Fly your own ship.


Jack

I can't find the 6/5/06 flight, much less a registration for a Peter
Klose from the SFV Mannheim Club, or any OLC fligt claims from a Peter
Klose. So I don't know if this is a bogus complaint, or if the pilot
removed all his flights and registration in protest.

Either way, posting this kind of complaint on r.a.s is not the proper
way to addres this. There is a partner check function in the OLC which
should be used. US complaints can also be emailed to
olcatssadotorg. We have access to the pilot's email and can contact
them if necessary, and/or remove offending flights.

As pointed out, logger pressure altitude errors can be quite large,
especially at high altitudes. If your calibration trace shows a large
unfavorable error around 18,000' MSL, it would be best to add a note
addresing this in the comments field of the claim form.

Doug Haluza
SSA-OLC Admin

Soarin Again wrote:
On 6/5/06 Peter Klose from the SFV Mannheim club
flying a Nimbus 3DM D-KTTT out of Parowan, Utah had
such a large error in his logger that he went to 19,180.

The OLC should pull his flight until he provides
a calibration chart to verify that much error. It
would be bad enough if someday some lawless U.S. pilot
causes us to loose the airspace privledges we currently
enjoy.
I'm sure if a U.S. pilot flying in Germany disregarded
their airspace limitations, he would quickly be excused
from further flight.
For those who would say that maybe he had a clearence.
That should have been included in the remarks section
of the flight claim. I'm sure we have some glider
pilot in that area who would have been able to verify
it with ATC.

2. Are you aware of the size of potential altimeter
errors at high
altitudes? The altimeter used for inflight reference
could easily
have indicated 400' lower than the baro reference you
see on OLC.

3. Fly your own ship.


Jack

heck, 6000 ft isn't even pattern altitude where I live! That would really
make it a rotten summer.

dave in boulder


"flying_monkey" wrote in message
ups.com...
OK, I'm puzzled. Maybe you folks can help me understand this. I
looked up the definition of Class A airspace, which is "from 18,000
feet MSL to and including FL600" with few exceptions that don't apply
to the area I'm looking at. I've seen more than one flight posted on
OLC which have a high point above 18,000 feet, up to 18,500 feet. Is
there some fine point I'm not understanding which makes this legal?

Heck, I think it should be illegal to fly in conditions where you could
thermal into the stratosphere. Unless they can make conditions like
that back here in the east, where about 6,000 is the highest I've
gotten all summer.

Thanks in advance,
Ed

I agree, we do NOT need to test the limits of our airspace rules
because the only reason we are allowed to fly in all the airpsace that
we have is because we have not presented ourselves as a threat to other
more important air traffic.

It will just take one downed airliner, or even a close call, to change
all that overnight!!!

Perhaps there was not enough oxygen getting to this individuals brain
at the time either, when 19,000 on the Altimeter did not register
anything significant for him.

If we do this and not manage ourselves our future might be limited to
12,500.

Lets not!

I agree, anything 500' over a limit should not count and in fact cause
letter from the locally responsible governing organization to reprimand
any pilot that violates important airspace.

At least that shows to the FAA that we ARE governing ourselves.

Ray

jb92563 wrote:


It will just take one downed airliner, or even a close call, to change
all that overnight!!!

Perhaps there was not enough oxygen getting to this individuals brain
at the time either, when 19,000 on the Altimeter did not register
anything significant for him.

I agree, anything 500' over a limit should not count and in fact cause
letter from the locally responsible governing organization to reprimand
any pilot that violates important airspace.

At least that shows to the FAA that we ARE governing ourselves.



We're seeing more paranoia than self-discipline in some of these posts.

Are the facts something that might of interest to you? Doug Haluza has
already indicated he is trying to track down whatever might be
instructive for the rest of us.

In the mean time you might study up on altimeter error, ATC procedures,
and maybe start an exercise program.


Jack

I am curious if all those paranoids about loosing our privileges or
taking down an airliner as a result of someone accidentally and
momentarily penetrating class A airspace by few hundred feets, are
actually flying with transponders below 18K where the likelihood for an
airliner is many time folds higher?
I am flying with TPAS, and am amazed to find out how few gliders using
transponders, and even fewer when further away from the airspace.

Ramy

jb92563 wrote:
I agree, we do NOT need to test the limits of our airspace rules
because the only reason we are allowed to fly in all the airpsace that
we have is because we have not presented ourselves as a threat to other
more important air traffic.

It will just take one downed airliner, or even a close call, to change
all that overnight!!!

Perhaps there was not enough oxygen getting to this individuals brain
at the time either, when 19,000 on the Altimeter did not register
anything significant for him.

If we do this and not manage ourselves our future might be limited to
12,500.

Lets not!

I agree, anything 500' over a limit should not count and in fact cause
letter from the locally responsible governing organization to reprimand
any pilot that violates important airspace.

At least that shows to the FAA that we ARE governing ourselves.

Ray

Doug,
I just looked at the international OLC, and sure enough there is
a Peter Klose, but from Aero Team Klix in Germany. He has no flights
posted.

I don't know if this whole episode is some kind of bad joke or not, but
perhaps you can quietly contact AT Klix and see what really happened. If he
bust the Class A and has now tried to hide the evidence then at least he may
have learned something. On the other hand, if he never did anything of the
sort, we have a malicious troublemaker on ras.

Regards,

Ian

Try Thiele Uwe DE (BW) flight file 665c3k51-190 he
is currently listed in 7th place on the U.S. OLC.
It is after all a 3DM so maybe they were both flying.
But Link Mario is shown as the co-pilot but Peter
Klose is the PIlots name that shows up when the flight
is opened up in SeeYou. Then again maybe Peter made
the flight and Thiele is claiming it.

I'm just sick and tired of people claiming that it
is just altimeter error. Scoring pilots who exceed
18k by more than a small margin without some documentation
to show dramitic altimeter error, is just rewarding
pilots for blatant disregard of regulations.

At 16:36 23 August 2006, Doug Haluza wrote:
I can't find the 6/5/06 flight, much less a registration
for a Peter
Klose from the SFV Mannheim Club, or any OLC fligt
claims from a Peter
Klose. So I don't know if this is a bogus complaint,
or if the pilot
removed all his flights and registration in protest.

Either way, posting this kind of complaint on r.a.s
is not the proper
way to addres this. There is a partner check function
in the OLC which
should be used. US complaints can also be emailed to
olcssaorg. We have access to the pilot's email and
can contact
them if necessary, and/or remove offending flights.

As pointed out, logger pressure altitude errors can
be quite large,
especially at high altitudes. If your calibration trace
shows a large
unfavorable error around 18,000' MSL, it would be best
to add a note
addresing this in the comments field of the claim form.

Doug Haluza
SSA-OLC Admin

Soarin Again wrote:
On 6/5/06 Peter Klose from the SFV Mannheim club
flying a Nimbus 3DM D-KTTT out of Parowan, Utah had
such a large error in his logger that he went to 19,180.

The OLC should pull his flight until he provides
a calibration chart to verify that much error. It
would be bad enough if someday some lawless U.S. pilot
causes us to loose the airspace privledges we currently
enjoy.
I'm sure if a U.S. pilot flying in Germany disregarded
their airspace limitations, he would quickly be excused
from further flight.
For those who would say that maybe he had a clearence.
That should have been included in the remarks section
of the flight claim. I'm sure we have some glider
pilot in that area who would have been able to verify
it with ATC.

2. Are you aware of the size of potential altimeter
errors at high
altitudes? The altimeter used for inflight reference
could easily
have indicated 400' lower than the baro reference
you
see on OLC.

3. Fly your own ship.


Jack