visual contact with other traffic

Marc Adler wrote:
Listening to http://audio.liveatc.net:8012/kjfk_app_final , I hear a
lot of instructions from the tower to follow other traffic, but the
pilots don't always know what aircraft they're following. It sounds
like the tower expects them to be able to recognize an airplane (type,
airline, etc.) from two miles away. Is that possible?

When it gets busy, anything can happen. Once, years ago I called the
tower returning to my home airport - and was told I was number 5 to
land. I looked and looked, but could
only see two planes - one on final and one presumably ahead of me on
downwind - about a mile out. So I followed him, and he just kept going
and going. Finally I decided
that he was leaving the area, and turned base (about a mile past the
end of the runway). Then I looked to the right, and guess what? This
guy had also turned base - probably two miles out. Then I saw another
plane also on base - coming from the opposite direction! All this and
nothing that would have alerted me to the fact that the controller was
running simultaneous left and right traffic on the same runway.
The opposing traffic was a bit further out than me, so I cut the corner
to final and
landed without incident - other than that the controller was surprised
to see me in that sequence.

Another time I joined the pattern at a busy airport and was told to
follow the plane ahead.
This I did until on final, without another word from the tower. Finally
I asked if I was cleared to land - and was told to switch to the other
(parallel) runway at the last
possible moment. The controller had completely forgotten about me.

Just last weekend I joined the pattern at a busy uncontrolled field.
Everything would have been fine, except that a string of ultralights
came in from the side at about half
pattern altitude and cut into traffic to land - almost in formation.
They did have radios,
and announced themselves. However it was still quite a surprise. The
last in the string went right under me. I extended my pattern to avoid
conflict (announcing that I was doing so). My reward was to have the
guy behind me in the pattern cut in and appear ahead of me on final. I
of course went around.

Fun and games. Sometimes it gets pretty crazy out there.

David Johnson

Judah wrote:

Better to ask than to wonder...

And they do. It's all very cordial, too. It's interesting to listen to.
Yesterday a flight not schedule to land at JFK asked permission to
because of a medical emergency. The controller made the appropriate
changes in the approach to let him cut in line, as it were, and
explained to the other pilots what was happening. (I assume they heard
what was going on, though, since they were all on the same frequency.)
The controller asked what the emergency was, and the pilot said they
were looking in to it, but probably wouldn't find out until on the
ground because the "patient" didn't speak any English.

Listening to airports in non-English speaking countries is interesting,
too, because you get a chance to listen to Bulgarian controllers
speaking English to Italian pilots, say. And in Amsterdam you sometimes
can't tell if the controllers are speaking Dutch or English, because
their accents are so thick, and some Dutch and English numbers sound
alike (vijv, seks, seven, nijn, etc.) There was one female controller
who would say hello in the language of whatever nationality the airline
was - konnichi wa for JAL, bonjour for Air France, etc. That was ground
control, and it was interesting to hear pilots actually getting lost
and having to be rerouted to the runway.

Marc

Dave wrote:

Fun and games. Sometimes it gets pretty crazy out there.

Sounds like scary fun and games.

Incidentally, is altitude the only factor keeping departing planes from
hitting planes entering the pattern on the crosswind leg?

Marc

"Marc Adler" wrote in news:1158934139.228246.309560
@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

Dave wrote:

Fun and games. Sometimes it gets pretty crazy out there.

Sounds like scary fun and games.

Incidentally, is altitude the only factor keeping departing planes from
hitting planes entering the pattern on the crosswind leg?

Marc

Officially, the rule is that planes are supposed to enter the pattern only on
the downwind leg and coming in on a 45* angle for maximum visibility. You can
"avoid" entering the pattern by flying a straight-in approach (ie: be on
Final) but entering on a Crosswind is not authorized.

Typically, I think most pilots who need to get to the other side of the
runway for the pattern fly over the runway and pattern by about 500', make
sure there is no one on the downwind, and then loop around as they drop
altitude to enter the pattern on a 45* angle as recommended.

I'm not sure that everyone follows the rules, but I'm pretty sure that
everyone certainly keeps their eyes open...

Judah wrote
You can "avoid" entering the pattern by flying a straight-in
approach (ie: be on Final) but entering on a Crosswind is
not authorized.

Where is that stated?

Bob Moore

Bob Moore wrote in
. 122:

Judah wrote
You can "avoid" entering the pattern by flying a straight-in
approach (ie: be on Final) but entering on a Crosswind is
not authorized.

Where is that stated?

Bob Moore

You're right. I should have said not recommended in the AIM, Advisory
Circular No.90-66A, or the Pilot/Controller Glossary...

Sorry for the error.

"Judah" wrote in message
.. .

Officially, the rule is that planes are supposed to enter the pattern only
on
the downwind leg and coming in on a 45* angle for maximum visibility. You
can
"avoid" entering the pattern by flying a straight-in approach (ie: be on
Final) but entering on a Crosswind is not authorized.


Entering on a crosswind requires no authorization.

"Judah" wrote in message
. ..

You're right. I should have said not recommended in the AIM, Advisory
Circular No.90-66A, or the Pilot/Controller Glossary...

Sorry for the error.


Where is it stated in the AIM, Advisory Circular No.90-66A, or the
Pilot/Controller Glossary, that entering on a crosswind is not authorized?

Judah wrote
You're right. I should have said not recommended in the AIM, Advisory
Circular No.90-66A, or the Pilot/Controller Glossary...

Judah...who-ever you are....you seem to be out of your league
in this newsgroup.

Robert R. Moore
ATP B-707 B-727
Certificate # 1450645
CFI ASEL IA
PanAm (retired)

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote in
:

Judah wrote:
....
You can
"avoid" entering the pattern by flying a straight-in approach (ie: be on
Final) but entering on a Crosswind is not authorized.

This is incorrect.

You're right. I should have said not recommended in the AIM, Advisory
Circular No.90-66A, or the Pilot/Controller Glossary... I must have had
Procedure Turns on the brain.

Typically, I think most pilots who need to get to the other side of the
runway for the pattern fly over the runway and pattern by about 500',
make sure there is no one on the downwind, and then loop around as they
drop altitude to enter the pattern on a 45* angle as recommended.

I don't see this much. It requires extra flying around in
the vicinity of the airport and descending near the area
where other planes are regularly entering the pattern at an
altitude below you. My personal opinion is that it's
riskier than the crosswind approach and its main benefit is
that if you use this on a flight test no instructor or DPE
can really fault you.


I'm surprised you don't see it much. I believe it is SUBSTANTIALLY LESS risky
than the Crosswind Approach, especially for those of us flying low-wing
planes who might miss a high-wing NORDO pilot who might take off as we are
coming in, or be departing the pattern from the upwind leg as recommended in
the AIM. It is also in line with Section 8 of Advisory Circular No. 90-66A
which states:

"8. RECOMMENDED STANDARD TRAFFIC PATTERN.
....
a. Prior to entering the traffic pattern at an airport without an operating
control tower, aircraft should avoid the flow of traffic until established
on the entry leg.
....
b, Arriving aircraft should be at the appropriate traffic pattern altitude
before entering the traffic pattern. Entry to the downwind leg should be
at a 45-degree angle abeam the midpoint of the runway."

Presumably, if one enters the downwind from a crosswind, it will be at a 90
degree angle about 1/4 mile past the end of the runway, not at a 45 degree
angle abeam the midpoint of the runway.

I'm not sure that everyone follows the rules, but I'm pretty sure that
everyone certainly keeps their eyes open...

And the spots I look the hardest a 1) on entry to the 45
to make sure someone in a low wing is not descending onto
me, 2) at the turn to downwind to coordinate the crosswind
and 45 entry traffic, with a glance back up the downwind for
long downwind entry traffic , and 3) a look to the right at
the base to final turn to see the straight in crowd and
those who fly patterns 2 miles out.

Good places to look, but what about departing traffic?
I think if you enter the downwind at a 45 to the midpoint, you might save
yourself a little extra work/risk as compared with a Crosswind entry.
Especially since you don't seem to be looking for it... Certainly worth an
extra two minutes or so to fly a nice safe teardrop.

While the AIM's advice is indeed not mandatory, it certainly is pretty good
advice...