Get-Home-Itis, Arrogance, or What?

Steve Foley wrote:
"Ron Snipes" wrote in message
news:uCHQg.157$b23.82@dukeread07...
"I can't tell, I think we're upside-down."

This gives me a horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach.

Sorry for the stupid question, but how on earth is this possible? Can't
you tell if you're upside down or not? Or is it like being deep
underwater?

Marc

Sorry for the stupid question, but how on earth is this possible? Can't
you tell if you're upside down or not? Or is it like being deep
underwater?

If you're in cloud, you can't see out. When flying, you can generate g
forces (by turning, banking, climbing, etc) which can fool you into
thinking that "down" is in any direction. So, it's quite easy to not
know where up and down are. I suppose it's like being deep underwater,
but for different reasons.

This is one of the first things one must learn in instrument flying -
trust the instruments over your inner ear. They are less likely to be
lying to you.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In a previous article, "Gary Drescher" said:
I disagree. The PP instrument training really should suffice to keep you
upright in clouds for long enough to reach VMC if there's any within range.

If you were in VMC and entered a cloud, it's supposed to be sufficient
training that you can make a gentle 180 back to VMC. But this idiot
launched into IMC. That's significantly different.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"Panic kills"
-- Rick Grant (quoting RCAF pilot training)

ktbr wrote:
Gary Drescher wrote:
I disagree. The PP instrument training really should suffice to keep
you upright in clouds for long enough to reach VMC if there's any
within range.

It is generally understood that the training is sufficient to
allow you to recognize your have entered IMC and then immediately
make a 180 and get back out.... all in the space of a reasonably
short time.... and there is not too much turbulence... and you are
not to nervous... and hopefully you have maintained those skills
since you checkride. etc. etc. It also assumes the pilot has and
uses every cell of good judgement he has.

I doubt the conditions of the obave referenced accident met this
criteria.

As soon as he decided to depart, a few cells can be assumed to be on the
blink.

All well said.

Viperdoc wrote:
Besides, being carbureted, a 150 will quit after only a few seconds
inverted.

I'm thinking in such a situation that the negative G required to kill
the engine would be pre-empted by pilot's need to pull the wings off.

Does anyone, ever, kill an engine that way when mistakenly entering IMC?

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:


If you think it's useless, what is the point of the training
then?

Please show me where I stated that this training was useless.
I never stated that it was useless, only that 3 hours of this
training was insufficient to save someone from the situation
that the pilot of the 152 encountered in that incident. You
seemed (in your post) to insist that the 3 hours as a part of
PP training should be sufficient to allow anyone to safely fly
their airplane in IMC safely back to VMC. All too often this is
not to be the case.

As a CFI I make no illusions about how skilled a given PP will be
if they encounter serious IMC and I do warn them of this. We
train them as best we can within the 3 hours or so we have, and,
of course they must demonstrate an acceptable level of performanc
in this activity on their checkride.

The fact is that most people want to get their PP certificate
in as minimum a time as necessary (can't blame them, its not
cheap). Perhaps PP certificates should have a warning label on
them sorta like Walmarts labels on superman holloween costumes
("Warning: this cape will not give the wearer the ability to fly")

:^)



we have to spend. If they desire to spend
more time in this area or I Possibly he had a false sense of confidence
of his
3 hours of training.

The fact is that most people want to get their PP certificate
in as minimum a time as necessary (can't blame them, its not
cheap).

My ground instructor had a saying: Looking for a bargain in flight
training is like looking for a bargain in a brain surgeon.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
Sorry for the stupid question, but how on earth is this possible? Can't
you tell if you're upside down or not? Or is it like being deep
underwater?

If you're in cloud, you can't see out. When flying, you can generate g
forces (by turning, banking, climbing, etc) which can fool you into
thinking that "down" is in any direction. So, it's quite easy to not
know where up and down are. I suppose it's like being deep underwater,
but for different reasons.

This is one of the first things one must learn in instrument flying -
trust the instruments over your inner ear.

...and it's what I always thought was the actual purpose of the minimal
instrument flying taught in the PP curriculum, that is, you can't do it
without reference to the instruments. Second lesson is, that in
anything but momentary, smooth IMC, you can't do it without more training.

They are less likely to be
lying to you.

:-)

Well, you can hope and dream all you want, but only 3 hours
of training in basic instrument procedures is required for a
private pilot certificate. Even good instrument rated pilots
(the best ones) set personal minimums until they gain a certain
number of hours of instrument flying to gain confidence....
and that is without an instructor in the right seat.

Agree 100 percent with the above.

Finding yourself in the dead middle of hard IMC with only
3 hours of training can be disasterous as this sad event
illustrates. If you think these 3 hours will save your life
if you get into a situation like that you are whistling past
a graveyard.

and here is my take on training.

It shoudl be *required* that every VFR pilot experience actual IMC in
the three hours as part of their VFR training, to recognize and see the
real dangers of IMC.

I took a VFR only pilot up doing some approaches in actual conditions,
and by the time we landed, his eyes were big as saucers, and also came
out of it with a fuller respect for IMC conditions. We had 1.1 hours
of hard IMC out of 1.5 hours of flying.

It was bumpy inside the clag, and by the time we landed, he even said,
I'm not so sure I could have handled it by myself. He also said, had
he not purposely focused on the intruments, he wouldn't have know which
way was up. Never mind trying to handle the controls, it was
overwhelming just experiencing it.

Nothing like the real thing.....

Allen

("Ron Snipes" wrote)
Just how many G's does it take to rip the wings off a C-150? What a shame.
************************************************** ********************************************
NTSB Identification: NYC06FA215
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Monday, September 04, 2006 in Penhook, VA
Aircraft: Cessna 150G, registration: N2932J
Injuries: 2 Fatal.


This jumped out at me: pilot/passenger/plane running into, and breaking up,
in 'hard IMC'

....calm day.

The weather conditions reported at Roanoke Regional Airport (ROA), about 26
nautical miles northwest of the accident site, at 1154, included winds from
150 degrees at 6 knots, 3 statute miles visibility in light rain and mist,
scattered clouds at 500 feet, an overcast ceiling at 700 feet, temperature
63 degrees Fahrenheit, dewpoint 59 degrees Fahrenheit, and an altimeter
setting of 30.20 inches of mercury.

The weather conditions reported at Lynchburg Regional Airport (LYH), about
30 nautical miles northeast of the accident site, at 1126, included variable
winds at 3 knots, 2 statute miles visibility in heavy rain and mist, few
clouds at 1,100 feet, an overcast ceiling at 2,600 feet, temperature 63
degrees Fahrenheit, dewpoint 59 degrees Fahrenheit, and an altimeter setting
of 30.19 inches of mercury.


Montblack