The LEX crash - A CRM view

Recently, Kingfish posted:

[...]The other thing
that bothers me is that *both* pilots were oblivious to being on the
wrong runway. When I fly the Pilatus (private charter) the checklist
requires us to set the heading bug on the runway - it's part of the
line-up check. I'm sure Comair has a similar checklist to the one we
use, and I'm amazed something like this could happen.

If you pull onto the runway and set your bug to the runway you THINK
you're on without verifying it against the compass or some other piece of
gear, you haven't improved your safety one bit. OTOH, I'd be surprised if
the Comair didn't have a number of additional checks to make, such as GPS,
that should have exposed the error prior to rolling.

Neil

wrote in message .

If as PNF you notice that the PF has just turned on to the wrong runway
to commence the takeoff roll, are you permitted to alert him ....

Not permitted, .... required.

Heck YES! Things like this is exactly why passenger carrying aircraft
have TWO pilots. Essentially, both pilots should agree, especially on
something as basic as this. If either pilot disagrees, the issue should
be worked out until there is an agreement. In a dispute, captain
prevails, but ANY good captain should carefully consider his copilot's
opinion.

wrote:
If as PNF you notice that the PF has just turned on to the wrong runway
to commence the takeoff roll, are you permitted to alert him (can't see
why not, actually, if lives are likely to be on the line) to it or are
you expected to just shut up and let him make the call? Presume for the
moment that the Capn is PF, which I hear wasn't the case in the LEX
incident...

Ramapriya

wrote:

If as PNF you notice that the PF has just turned on to the wrong runway
to commence the takeoff roll, are you permitted to alert him (can't see
why not, actually, if lives are likely to be on the line) to it or are
you expected to just shut up and let him make the call? Presume for the
moment that the Capn is PF, which I hear wasn't the case in the LEX
incident...

In the LEX incident, the captain had to steer the aircraft and line it up
on the runway, since he is the only one with access to the tiller on that
type of aircraft. The FO then took over for the takeoff. Therefore, each
had a hand in the decision to use the runway.

Are you kidding....I would never open my mouth if someone was about to do
something that was going to kill me...I would just it there quietly and
die.....


wrote in message
ups.com...
If as PNF you notice that the PF has just turned on to the wrong runway
to commence the takeoff roll, are you permitted to alert him (can't see
why not, actually, if lives are likely to be on the line) to it or are
you expected to just shut up and let him make the call? Presume for the
moment that the Capn is PF, which I hear wasn't the case in the LEX
incident...

Ramapriya

That actually wasn't the point of my asking. Ok let me phrase it this
way... if this exact thing had happened on a 20,000 foot runway with no
other traffic in sight, you'd still not have pointed out the error as
PNF?

Ramapriya


WRE (remove nospam) wrote:
Are you kidding....I would never open my mouth if someone was about to do
something that was going to kill me...I would just it there quietly and
die.....


wrote in message
ups.com...
If as PNF you notice that the PF has just turned on to the wrong runway
to commence the takeoff roll, are you permitted to alert him (can't see
why not, actually, if lives are likely to be on the line) to it or are
you expected to just shut up and let him make the call? Presume for the
moment that the Capn is PF, which I hear wasn't the case in the LEX
incident...

Ramapriya

I could be wrong, but I think there was a particular level of sarcasm
in WREs post?

Jay B

Jay B wrote:
I could be wrong, but I think there was a particular level of sarcasm in WREs post?

Jay B


Of course there was - but then when even the PF is a qualified pilot
and not some stewardess, such sarcasm is merely misplaced; it isn't
like some dunce at the wheel is trying to kill you! My rejoinder should
convey better what I was intending to ask.

Ramapriya