ASH 26E VS DG 808C

Eric, can you explain span loading as opposed to wing loading?

On Oct 21, 8:13 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Roger wrote:
Eric, some places fly all year and if the pilot is 200 - 250 lbs the
wing loading in a motor glider is near max.Have you considered a sustainer glider instead of a self-launcher? That
removes 100 pounds or so. I've found my 18 meter glider climbs as well
as a typical 15 meter glider that has less wing loading. Span loading is
an important number, so don't go just by wing loading.

In the winter this means
the non-engine folks have a much easier time staying aloft, and the
motor glider in on the ground watching the pure gliders having fun.Start the engine, climb a bit, and go back to soaring. You will be able
to do cross-country flights on the days the unpowered folk don't dare
leave the field. The engine is your portable towplane, and even in weak
conditions you might find, as I have, that you don't need it as much as
you thought you would.

Starting the engine might be the of competition or badge flight, but
it's not the end of the flight or the fun. A few of my most memorable
flights involved weak conditions and low cloud bases, but I had good
soaring flights because I knew it wasn't going to end in a retrieve. Not
that retrieves can't be fun, but after 20 years of them before I got the
motorglider, my wife and I aren't missing them much!

To the 26E, 808 list I'd add the Antares, and the Apis and Silent
gliders (electric and gas versions). Lots more choices today than 10
years ago.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation websitewww.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:JlB_g.416$ke4.139@trndny02...
Start the engine, climb a bit, and go back to soaring. You will be able to
do cross-country flights on the days the unpowered folk don't dare leave
the field.

Ah Hah.....so you DO admit that having the motor is an advantage! ;-)

Casey
KC

I did a lot of comparing and spent another 2 hours going back and forth
between the 26E and the 808B. The comparing included talking to people who
worked on both these gliders, including Tom Stowers and Larry Mansberger (of
composite fame).

I chose the 26E.

Subsequent to this, about 4 years ago, I've had much more experience and had
the chance to really "go over" my glider, and look at the competition too.
Even with the "C" version now available, I'd make the same decision again.

Of course, it's to be expected that an owner will tend to favor the machine
he has invested in - - I guess. The 26 is not perfect, but it's the very
best 18 meter self-launch available, both mechanically, and esthetically
too.

bumper

wrote in message
oups.com...
I know the comparison of ASH 26 VS DG 800's has been done, but now that
DG has come out with a DG 808C I was wondering what self launching guys
think? The new 808C allows wing loading of up to 10.2 Lbs compared to
9.2 for the ASH 26? The new DG also has NOAH exit assist and stall
warning plus automated engine extraction and stowage. If you were in
the market today for a self launch which one would you choose? Plus
these designs are getting near the end of their life span, what would
you like to see in the next self launch glider?

What about the ablity with the 808 C comp to now fly at 10.4 Lbs verus
the 26's max wing loading of 9.2 Lbs, the stearable tail wheel and the
ability to fill the gas tank from a truck or gas pump? I too think the
26 is "prettier". Does the large canopy of the DG cause relection and
leak when it shrinks do the the cold from altitude?

On Oct 21, 7:05 pm, "bumper" wrote:
I did a lot of comparing and spent another 2 hours going back and forth
between the 26E and the 808B. The comparing included talking to people who
worked on both these gliders, including Tom Stowers and Larry Mansberger (of
composite fame).

I chose the 26E.

Subsequent to this, about 4 years ago, I've had much more experience and had
the chance to really "go over" my glider, and look at the competition too.
Even with the "C" version now available, I'd make the same decision again.

Of course, it's to be expected that an owner will tend to favor the machine
he has invested in - - I guess. The 26 is not perfect, but it's the very
best 18 meter self-launch available, both mechanically, and esthetically
too.

bumper

wrote in ooglegroups.com...

I know the comparison of ASH 26 VS DG 800's has been done, but now that
DG has come out with a DG 808C I was wondering what self launching guys
think? The new 808C allows wing loading of up to 10.2 Lbs compared to
9.2 for the ASH 26? The new DG also has NOAH exit assist and stall
warning plus automated engine extraction and stowage. If you were in
the market today for a self launch which one would you choose? Plus
these designs are getting near the end of their life span, what would
you like to see in the next self launch glider?

Roger wrote:
What about the ablity with the 808 C comp to now fly at 10.4 Lbs verus
the 26's max wing loading of 9.2 Lbs,

For most of my flying, the 8.2 lbs my ASH 26 E flies at is just about
right. I often take off early, so even the 9.2 lbs I could go to isn't
useful, and most flights seem to include a slow part where I might dump
the ballast anyway. Also, I'm too lazy to bother putting in water for
the slight advantage it might give, except at contests or speed record
attempts.

A pilot flying the eastern ridges might prefer the extra lb of wing
loading, also one that flew in areas with routinely strong conditions,
or flew only in the heart of the day, and didn't mind putting the
ballast in.

the stearable tail wheel

The ASH 26 E has an excellent steerable tailwheel for hard/firm
surfaces. For with _very_ soft fields, I suggest using the
interchangeable fixed pneumatic wheel or using the tail dolly to move it
into position.

and the
ability to fill the gas tank from a truck or gas pump?

I've always found it convenient to fill from a 5 gallon gas can I carry
in the glider (as do most DG owners) using the supplied electric pump
(this can carried or mounted permanently in the glider). I've never
wanted to move the glider to a pump or have a truck come to it. If you
need to fuel the glider at an airport where a can is not available, you
can easily carry a suitable container. In 12 seasons and 500 flights,
I've never been in this situation.

I too think the
26 is "prettier". Does the large canopy of the DG cause relection and
leak when it shrinks do the the cold from altitude?

On Oct 21, 7:05 pm, "bumper" wrote:
I did a lot of comparing and spent another 2 hours going back and forth
between the 26E and the 808B. The comparing included talking to people who
worked on both these gliders, including Tom Stowers and Larry Mansberger (of
composite fame).

I chose the 26E.

Subsequent to this, about 4 years ago, I've had much more experience and had
the chance to really "go over" my glider, and look at the competition too.
Even with the "C" version now available, I'd make the same decision again.

Of course, it's to be expected that an owner will tend to favor the machine
he has invested in - - I guess. The 26 is not perfect, but it's the very
best 18 meter self-launch available, both mechanically, and esthetically
too.

bumper

wrote in ooglegroups.com...

I know the comparison of ASH 26 VS DG 800's has been done, but now that
DG has come out with a DG 808C I was wondering what self launching guys
think? The new 808C allows wing loading of up to 10.2 Lbs compared to
9.2 for the ASH 26? The new DG also has NOAH exit assist and stall
warning plus automated engine extraction and stowage. If you were in
the market today for a self launch which one would you choose? Plus
these designs are getting near the end of their life span, what would
you like to see in the next self launch glider?



--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

So we have heard form two ASH 26 owners. Any DG 800-808 owners want to
opine? I have heard the build quality is better on the ASH than the
DG, how so?

It seems to me that Western flyers would want the extra wing loading in
the summer. How do the cockpits compare between the DG and ASH? What
about sealing from the factory?

Allison

On Oct 22, 9:04 am, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Roger wrote:
What about the ablity with the 808 C comp to now fly at 10.4 Lbs verus
the 26's max wing loading of 9.2 Lbs,For most of my flying, the 8.2 lbs my ASH 26 E flies at is just about
right. I often take off early, so even the 9.2 lbs I could go to isn't
useful, and most flights seem to include a slow part where I might dump
the ballast anyway. Also, I'm too lazy to bother putting in water for
the slight advantage it might give, except at contests or speed record
attempts.

A pilot flying the eastern ridges might prefer the extra lb of wing
loading, also one that flew in areas with routinely strong conditions,
or flew only in the heart of the day, and didn't mind putting the
ballast in.

the stearable tail wheelThe ASH 26 E has an excellent steerable tailwheel for hard/firm
surfaces. For with _very_ soft fields, I suggest using the
interchangeable fixed pneumatic wheel or using the tail dolly to move it
into position.

and the
ability to fill the gas tank from a truck or gas pump?I've always found it convenient to fill from a 5 gallon gas can I carry
in the glider (as do most DG owners) using the supplied electric pump
(this can carried or mounted permanently in the glider). I've never
wanted to move the glider to a pump or have a truck come to it. If you
need to fuel the glider at an airport where a can is not available, you
can easily carry a suitable container. In 12 seasons and 500 flights,
I've never been in this situation.



I too think the
26 is "prettier". Does the large canopy of the DG cause relection and
leak when it shrinks do the the cold from altitude?

On Oct 21, 7:05 pm, "bumper" wrote:
I did a lot of comparing and spent another 2 hours going back and forth
between the 26E and the 808B. The comparing included talking to people who
worked on both these gliders, including Tom Stowers and Larry Mansberger (of
composite fame).

I chose the 26E.

Subsequent to this, about 4 years ago, I've had much more experience and had
the chance to really "go over" my glider, and look at the competition too.
Even with the "C" version now available, I'd make the same decision again.

Of course, it's to be expected that an owner will tend to favor the machine
he has invested in - - I guess. The 26 is not perfect, but it's the very
best 18 meter self-launch available, both mechanically, and esthetically
too.

bumper

wrote in ooglegroups.com...

I know the comparison of ASH 26 VS DG 800's has been done, but now that
DG has come out with a DG 808C I was wondering what self launching guys
think? The new 808C allows wing loading of up to 10.2 Lbs compared to
9.2 for the ASH 26? The new DG also has NOAH exit assist and stall
warning plus automated engine extraction and stowage. If you were in
the market today for a self launch which one would you choose? Plus
these designs are getting near the end of their life span, what would
you like to see in the next self launch glider?--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation websitewww.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

wrote:
So we have heard form two ASH 26 owners. Any DG 800-808 owners want to
opine? I have heard the build quality is better on the ASH than the
DG, how so?

It seems to me that Western flyers would want the extra wing loading in
the summer. How do the cockpits compare between the DG and ASH? What
about sealing from the factory?

Cockpit or the control surfaces?


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

wrote in message
oups.com...
So we have heard form two ASH 26 owners. Any DG 800-808 owners want to
opine? I have heard the build quality is better on the ASH than the
DG, how so?

This is best answered by really looking closely at these gliders. And if
you're considering buying one, then it may be best to take the time to do
this for yourself.

I had the opportunity to do that to a degree on the SSA convention floor. I
listed what I thought were the pros and cons of each ship to help me decide.
Still, I missed a bunch of stuff, like the robustness of the 26's main gear,
and many of the smaller things that I only discovered after really exploring
the ins and outs of my 26E after taking delivery.

Those that know me would vouch for this, I tend to be a perfectionist when
it comes to things mechanical. I appreciate things that have been made well
.. . . not just on the outside, but also beneath the skin.

BTW, advantages I listed for the DG 800 series included:

Much better factory web site.
More progressive factory, at least in terms of being willing to quickly
embrace new ideas and technology like NOAH and "Piggott hook".
Lower cockpit sides for ease of exit.
Two piece wings allow shorter trailer.

bumper





It seems to me that Western flyers would want the extra wing loading in
the summer. How do the cockpits compare between the DG and ASH? What
about sealing from the factory?

Allison

I don't know about the '26 cockpit, but I have experience in the '20 and
'27. They are both quite comfortable for me, at 5'-10" and 200#. My DG800B
seems slightly narrower, but is wider than a LS-6. The DG forces a slightly
knock-kneed position, because of the wider pedestal. Ergonomics and finish
seem about equal.
I wish DG would approve some really good fuel hoses---I have just spent the
last 4 months trying to get the engine to develop full power. Finally, an
engine bay fuel hose gave up the secret, by starting to leak! Replaced it
and, viola, full power again! It spent 6 wk living with an A&P (approved)
mechanic until it was found.
The prop brake requires some attention to make sure it produces the needed
friction. Ordinarily, engine retraction is as simple as can be.
Handling is really nice---like a E series Mercedes Benz. No, it is not a
Porsche, but I'll bet the '26 isn't either.

--
Hartley Falbaum


wrote in message
oups.com...
So we have heard form two ASH 26 owners. Any DG 800-808 owners want to
opine? I have heard the build quality is better on the ASH than the
DG, how so?

It seems to me that Western flyers would want the extra wing loading in
the summer. How do the cockpits compare between the DG and ASH? What
about sealing from the factory?

Allison

On Oct 22, 9:04 am, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Roger wrote:
What about the ablity with the 808 C comp to now fly at 10.4 Lbs verus
the 26's max wing loading of 9.2 Lbs,For most of my flying, the 8.2 lbs
my ASH 26 E flies at is just about
right. I often take off early, so even the 9.2 lbs I could go to isn't
useful, and most flights seem to include a slow part where I might dump
the ballast anyway. Also, I'm too lazy to bother putting in water for
the slight advantage it might give, except at contests or speed record
attempts.

A pilot flying the eastern ridges might prefer the extra lb of wing
loading, also one that flew in areas with routinely strong conditions,
or flew only in the heart of the day, and didn't mind putting the
ballast in.

the stearable tail wheelThe ASH 26 E has an excellent steerable
tailwheel for hard/firm
surfaces. For with _very_ soft fields, I suggest using the
interchangeable fixed pneumatic wheel or using the tail dolly to move it
into position.

and the
ability to fill the gas tank from a truck or gas pump?I've always found
it convenient to fill from a 5 gallon gas can I carry
in the glider (as do most DG owners) using the supplied electric pump
(this can carried or mounted permanently in the glider). I've never
wanted to move the glider to a pump or have a truck come to it. If you
need to fuel the glider at an airport where a can is not available, you
can easily carry a suitable container. In 12 seasons and 500 flights,
I've never been in this situation.



I too think the
26 is "prettier". Does the large canopy of the DG cause relection and
leak when it shrinks do the the cold from altitude?

On Oct 21, 7:05 pm, "bumper" wrote:
I did a lot of comparing and spent another 2 hours going back and
forth
between the 26E and the 808B. The comparing included talking to people
who
worked on both these gliders, including Tom Stowers and Larry
Mansberger (of
composite fame).

I chose the 26E.

Subsequent to this, about 4 years ago, I've had much more experience
and had
the chance to really "go over" my glider, and look at the competition
too.
Even with the "C" version now available, I'd make the same decision
again.

Of course, it's to be expected that an owner will tend to favor the
machine
he has invested in - - I guess. The 26 is not perfect, but it's the
very
best 18 meter self-launch available, both mechanically, and
esthetically
too.

bumper

wrote in
ooglegroups.com...

I know the comparison of ASH 26 VS DG 800's has been done, but now
that
DG has come out with a DG 808C I was wondering what self launching
guys
think? The new 808C allows wing loading of up to 10.2 Lbs compared
to
9.2 for the ASH 26? The new DG also has NOAH exit assist and stall
warning plus automated engine extraction and stowage. If you were in
the market today for a self launch which one would you choose? Plus
these designs are getting near the end of their life span, what would
you like to see in the next self launch glider?--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation
websitewww.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

At 04:30 22 October 2006, Roger wrote:
So which one would you choose today? The Antares is
much more
expensive so that limits the market.

I'd like to object to this comment.
Before you decide on an aircraft (or make comments
about their pricing), please get up to date offers
for all brands you would concider, make sure that the
offers include ALL the itimes you will need to operate
the aircraft, then look at the BOTTOM line.
The bottom line Antares pricing is competitive with
similar infernal combustion based products.

It must also be said that ALL sailplane manufacturers
offer an amazing amount of product for the money they
charge. There is a lot of idealism in the business.


Anyway, if you are seriously interrested in an antares,
then you are also more than welcome to make an appointment
for a visit to Lange Flugzeugbau, including a test
flight. Then you will know where the money goes. Contact
information can be found at www.Lange-Flugzeugbau.com

Cheers, Andor

(yep, I work there)