Regs regarding "VFR flight following?" (also: "need to vent")

: We fly in that area a lot. Coming from the Southwest, MKE will usually
: not take a hand-off from Rockford Approach, which is always
: aggravating.

I'm usually coming from the south-southeast (Waukegan, Kenosha) and just nicking their airspace. Haven't gone
yet where I talked to them from under their Charlie and *didn't* get vectored to the west.

: If they DO take the hand-off (or if you're able to catch them on your
: own, they usually won't vector you around if you stay to the south of
: their airspace. If you head to the north (to Timmerman or Waukesha, for
: example), they will vector you around as needed, but not excessively,
: IMHO.

I actually did a "downtown sightseeing" tour for the first time when I was up there about two weeks ago. They
were very accomodating.

: If you fly past them along the lake shore, however, they WILL try to
: send you way out over the lake. I always tell them "unable", and with
: one exception they have always let me stay in tight to shore. The one
: exception resulted in being vectored all the way around Class C to the
: west, which really sucked.
: --

I don't remember the sectional exactly, but I imagine the SFC part of their Charlie goes to the lake, doesn't
it? You're kinda screwed there, but it's good to hear that they usually allow it.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

My experience has been mixed. At RDU where they work a lot of traffic
(for a Class C) I've found them to be flexible, accommodating, and
realistic. Home base is 10miles north and I'm often trying to direct-to
in or out of my base. Often as not, I'm sent directly over RDU with
departures and arrivals operating underneath. Other vectors I'm given
seem to always reflect the direction, density and altitudes of arrivals
and departures. No bull**** but I only get what I want if they can do
it and if I ask for it.

GSO where there is less traffic is a different matter. I'm almost
always sent around. Even when landing there, I've had them ignore my
radio calls until they were ready, causing more than 1 circling
maneuver to get my Class C acknowledgment. It's bull**** but that's the
way they do it. Less traffic, less experienced controllers perhaps.

If I'm flying underneath the ring, I generally squawk 1200. I know they
aren't sending traffic down there and I mainly need to watch out for
others 'below' the radar. They call me out to others so that helps too.

Interestingly, when passing GSO in 1200 mode, I've had a couple of a/c
that were clearly operating into or out of GSO come very close to me. I
can't remember that happening at RDU. Go figure.

wrote:
I had an interesting experience the other day. To some degree I was testing
the theory that a local Class-C facility would invariably vector VFR aircraft outside
the lateral boundaries of their airspace. I've seen this at a few different airports
where I transition through with flight following, but underneath (or overtop) the
vertical limits.

Basically, about 15 miles east I called up approach at 2500' westbound. I was
going to fly underneath the class-C which extends 5-miles from the airport SFC to
5000', and 10-miles out from 3400-5000'. My on-course track would put me about 6
miles from the airport. Sure enough, they issued vectors and told me to stay outside
10 miles from the airport. I replied that I would stay outside the Class-C. They
*again* issued me vectors and said to stay outside 10 miles. I reponded, "NXXXX would
like to terminate radar services." I never received the "radar service terminated,
squawk 1200," so I inquired as to whether or not they acknowledged my request to
terminate. The controller replied, "I want you to stay with ME until west of the
airport, continue on present heading." To which, I replied, "NXXXX outside the
Charlie, 2500, on-course, as I was planning."

I thought this particularly aggressive and unnecessary, so I was going to try
to find the official regs as far as flight following goes. I'm convinced that's the
reason why a lot of VFR pilots never want to talk to ATC unless absolutely necessary.
I pretty much use flight following on any cross-country when I'm not IFR, but it
aggravates me when they vector VFR traffic when outside (especially above/below) their
airspace anyway.

-Cory

Maule Driver wrote:
My experience has been mixed. At RDU where they work a lot of traffic
(for a Class C) I've found them to be flexible, accommodating, and
realistic.

GSO where there is less traffic is a different matter. I'm almost
always sent around. Even when landing there, I've had them ignore my
radio calls until they were ready, causing more than 1 circling
maneuver to get my Class C acknowledgment. It's bull**** but that's the
way they do it. Less traffic, less experienced controllers perhaps.


Yes on both. I also fly in that area (out of TTA) and my experience
mirrors yours. It seems like a rule of thumb that the farther east you
go in NC, the better the controllers are to deal with -- Seymor Johnson
is better than FAY is better than RDU is better than GSO and CLT is the
worst....

I have no idea why GSO acts so much busier than it is. Maybe they
train new controllers there.

Or maybe they are less flexible because the FSDO is on the field?

Yes on both. I also fly in that area (out of TTA) and my experience
mirrors yours. It seems like a rule of thumb that the farther east you
go in NC, the better the controllers are to deal with -- Seymor Johnson
is better than FAY is better than RDU is better than GSO and CLT is the
worst....

I have no idea why GSO acts so much busier than it is. Maybe they
train new controllers there.

Or maybe they are less flexible because the FSDO is on the field?

Try going further west. I was based at AVL for over a year, and found
the controllers
pretty friendly and accomodating. Be that as it may, I am well aware of
the "attitude"
that many of these facilities have (probably reflects the sort of
management that the
controllers have to live with). Bottom line is that I would rather not
talk to ATC if I have
a choice in the matter. I will route myself over, around or under their
airspace and never
say a word - and I will always choose an uncontrolled airport in
preference to one with a tower if said facilities will serve my needs.

Dave J

Dave wrote:
Try going further west. I was based at AVL for over a year, and found
the controllers
pretty friendly and accomodating. Be that as it may, I am well aware of
the "attitude"
that many of these facilities have (probably reflects the sort of
management that the
controllers have to live with). Bottom line is that I would rather not
talk to ATC if I have
a choice in the matter. I will route myself over, around or under their
airspace and never
say a word - and I will always choose an uncontrolled airport in
preference to one with a tower if said facilities will serve my needs.

I agree that management must be the issue. It's not individual controllers
it's the facility.

OTOH, I prefer using the system as much as I can, especially flying IFR.
IFR for VMC cross countries is easier and arguably safer. We have a
great system and using it is a great priviledge for this pilot.

I use big airports and small and find great service at both. I like big
airport security for my tied down aircraft. The best places of all are
often big city 'relievers' like Peter O in Tampa - Nice! It's all about
the money.

Of course, places like Peach State AP have cheap gas, good food, great
people, and great aircraft. Hard to beat places like that but it's not
near anything else of interest.

Maule Driver wrote:



I agree that management must be the issue. It's not individual controllers
it's the facility.

It is the facility but it's not the manager. Facilities develop a way
of doing things. A facilities manager can be changed like you change
your underwear and often are. Here at BIL I have been here nearly 14
years and we've had 8 or 9 managers. They have nearly zero affect on
how traffic is handled. In order for a facility to change the
controllers need to change at a pretty rapid clip. That just doesn't
happen.

I used to find CLT difficult. Over the past 2-3 years the attitude
seems to have lifted and things are better (e.g. letting IFR/VFR
transitions thru their B).

However, I don't think CLT can be compared to Class Cs.

xyzzy wrote:
Maule Driver wrote:

My experience has been mixed. At RDU where they work a lot of traffic
(for a Class C) I've found them to be flexible, accommodating, and
realistic.

GSO where there is less traffic is a different matter. I'm almost
always sent around. Even when landing there, I've had them ignore my
radio calls until they were ready, causing more than 1 circling
maneuver to get my Class C acknowledgment. It's bull**** but that's the
way they do it. Less traffic, less experienced controllers perhaps.



Yes on both. I also fly in that area (out of TTA) and my experience
mirrors yours. It seems like a rule of thumb that the farther east you
go in NC, the better the controllers are to deal with -- Seymor Johnson
is better than FAY is better than RDU is better than GSO and CLT is the
worst....

I have no idea why GSO acts so much busier than it is. Maybe they
train new controllers there.

Or maybe they are less flexible because the FSDO is on the field?

wrote in message
...

I had an interesting experience the other day. To some degree I was
testing
the theory that a local Class-C facility would invariably vector VFR
aircraft outside
the lateral boundaries of their airspace. I've seen this at a few
different airports
where I transition through with flight following, but underneath (or
overtop) the
vertical limits.

Basically, about 15 miles east I called up approach at 2500' westbound. I
was
going to fly underneath the class-C which extends 5-miles from the airport
SFC to
5000', and 10-miles out from 3400-5000'. My on-course track would put me
about 6
miles from the airport. Sure enough, they issued vectors and told me to
stay outside
10 miles from the airport. I replied that I would stay outside the
Class-C. They
*again* issued me vectors and said to stay outside 10 miles. I reponded,
"NXXXX would
like to terminate radar services." I never received the "radar service
terminated,
squawk 1200," so I inquired as to whether or not they acknowledged my
request to
terminate. The controller replied, "I want you to stay with ME until west
of the
airport, continue on present heading." To which, I replied, "NXXXX
outside the
Charlie, 2500, on-course, as I was planning."

I thought this particularly aggressive and unnecessary, so I was going to
try
to find the official regs as far as flight following goes. I'm convinced
that's the
reason why a lot of VFR pilots never want to talk to ATC unless absolutely
necessary.
I pretty much use flight following on any cross-country when I'm not IFR,
but it
aggravates me when they vector VFR traffic when outside (especially
above/below) their
airspace anyway.


Class C services are provided within the Class C airspace itself and also
within the outer area associated with it. If you're not happy with the
service while in the outer area you are free to terminate them at any time
and proceed on your merry way, as long as you remain outside Class C
airspace.

: Class C services are provided within the Class C airspace itself and also
: within the outer area associated with it. If you're not happy with the
: service while in the outer area you are free to terminate them at any time
: and proceed on your merry way, as long as you remain outside Class C
: airspace.

That's the most interesting thing about my experience. I was halfway
expecting them to vector me, and if I figured it was inappropriate I was going to
terminate. He *didn't* acknowledge my request to terminate, in fact he essentially
denied my request by telling me he wanted me to stay with him. Had I changed to
1200 and ignored his radio calls, would I be violating anything? That's sorta why
I'm looking for the regs on "VFR flight following."

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote in message
...

That's the most interesting thing about my experience. I was
halfway
expecting them to vector me, and if I figured it was inappropriate I was
going to
terminate. He *didn't* acknowledge my request to terminate, in fact he
essentially
denied my request by telling me he wanted me to stay with him. Had I
changed to
1200 and ignored his radio calls, would I be violating anything? That's
sorta why
I'm looking for the regs on "VFR flight following."


No violation. Don't "request" termination, tell the controller you're
terminating services.