New NavAir Changes

Mike Weeks wrote:
Given the examples of late; it's coming from all over the place. i.e.,
VFC-13 Det KW wanted to use a _famous_ number, lineage history and
patch as a separate squadron. As a det it had only been established
one year ago.


Yeah, Mike, but it does NOT make them 'Sundowners'. Frankly I think
it's a shame that they're going around pretending that they are . . .
what a load of crap.

Rich

R Leonard wrote:
Mike Weeks wrote:
Given the examples of late; it's coming from all over the place. i.e.,
VFC-13 Det KW wanted to use a _famous_ number, lineage history and
patch as a separate squadron. As a det it had only been established
one year ago.


Yeah, Mike, but it does NOT make them 'Sundowners'. Frankly I think
it's a shame that they're going around pretending that they are . . .
what a load of crap.

Couldn't agree more, Rich. Really sad in a way.

Mike Weeks wrote:
R Leonard wrote:
Mike Weeks wrote:
Given the examples of late; it's coming from all over the place. i.e.,
VFC-13 Det KW wanted to use a _famous_ number, lineage history and
patch as a separate squadron. As a det it had only been established
one year ago.


Yeah, Mike, but it does NOT make them 'Sundowners'. Frankly I think
it's a shame that they're going around pretending that they are . . .
what a load of crap.

Couldn't agree more, Rich. Really sad in a way.

I agree also. If they want to imitate a piece of history, they ught to
become a VC squadron...

Is NAVAIR designating operational squadrons today? Half a century ago it was
NAVAIRPAC and NAVAIRLANT with that authority.

WDA
Former Fury [FJ-4B] Flyer

end
---------------------snip-----------------------------

NAVAIR is the systems command (Pax River). NAVAIRPAC and NAVAIRLANT have
become Commander Naval Air Forces (CNAF) in San Diego, I think. NAVAIR is
the hardware crowd.

Tom
USN Ret now a NAVAIR bubba.

Tom Clarke wrote:
Is NAVAIR designating operational squadrons today? Half a century ago it was
NAVAIRPAC and NAVAIRLANT with that authority.

WDA
Former Fury [FJ-4B] Flyer

end
---------------------snip-----------------------------

NAVAIR is the systems command (Pax River). NAVAIRPAC and NAVAIRLANT have
become Commander Naval Air Forces (CNAF) in San Diego, I think. NAVAIR is
the hardware crowd.

I believe that it's NAVAIRPAC who has become CNAF (two hats) in 2001.
AIRLANT reports to CNAF and is now a two-star versus three.

"Mike Weeks" wrote in message
ps.com...

Tom Clarke wrote:
Is NAVAIR designating operational squadrons today? Half a century ago it
was
NAVAIRPAC and NAVAIRLANT with that authority.

WDA
Former Fury [FJ-4B] Flyer

end
---------------------snip-----------------------------

NAVAIR is the systems command (Pax River). NAVAIRPAC and NAVAIRLANT have
become Commander Naval Air Forces (CNAF) in San Diego, I think. NAVAIR
is
the hardware crowd.

I believe that it's NAVAIRPAC who has become CNAF (two hats) in 2001.
AIRLANT reports to CNAF and is now a two-star versus three.

I knew there was something like that going on. It has been a while since I
have been in the "Fleet"!

Thanks for the clarification.

Tom

was not VF-11 the "Red Rippers" or have I aged, VF-111 is/was "Sundowners"
but not to worry - your keyboard may have typed 111 but it didn't come out
that way - mine is like that all the time






"Mike Weeks" wrote in message
ps.com...
It might interest some to know that:

HT-28 was established 01 NOV 2006 as a new helo training squadron at
Whiting Field.

VFC-13 Det Key West is _officially_ redesignationed VFC-111 (on 01 NOV
2006) and they're going to use the the patch & nickname of WW II's
VF-11 _The Sundowners_.

and last, but not least -

VFA-201 is to disestablished 30 JUN 2007.

Copies of the 3111 & 5450 notices have been posted he

http://doni.daps.dla.mil/newdirectives.aspx

MW

Ski wrote:
was not VF-11 the "Red Rippers" or have I aged, VF-111 is/was "Sundowners"
but not to worry - your keyboard may have typed 111 but it didn't come out
that way - mine is like that all the time


Briefly, Sun Downers (note, properly two words, not one) were formed in
August 1942. Originally planned as a new incarnation of VF-42 (the
first CO was Charlie Fenton, the last CO of VF-42), assignment to
CVG-11 in October left the actual numbering done deal, VF-11. After
working up at North Island, the Air Group was due to take up residence
aboard USS Hornet (CV-8) and was headed west when the bad news came in.
VF-11 fetched up at Maui and it was here that the famous insignia of
two F4Fs shooting into a setting sun was designed, stenciling worked
out, and applied for the first time. The insignia was applied to the
instrument access panels on both sides forward of the cockpit and
personnel also received leather patches with the insignia stenciled on
them. Thus the beginnings of the Sun Downer insignia; my father (like
Fenton, a VF-42 alumnus) was the gent who designed the insignia. VF-11
proceeded to a tour in the Solomons from early April to mid July 1943
in F4Fs and a second tour, carrier based, in F6Fs.
After the war, the squadron was redesignated VF-11A on 15 Nov 1946 and
on 15 Jul 1948 redesignated VF-111. VF-111 was disestablished on 19
Jan 1959 and on the next day VA-156 was redesignated VF-111 20 Jan
1959. This new VF-111 adopted the insignia of the previous VF-111.
The squadron was briefly redesignated VF-26 from 1 Sep 1964 to 17 Sep
1964 and then reverted back to VF-111 until disestablished on 31 Mar
1995.

The Red Rippers could trace their origin back to 1 Feb 1927 when first
established as VF-5. The squadron went through many redesignations
over the years: to VF-5S on 1 Jul 1927, VF-5B in Jan 1928, VB-1B on 1
Jul 1928, VF-5B on 1 Jul 1930, VF-5S in Jul 1932, VF-5B in Apr 1933,
VF-4 on 1 Jul 1937, VF-41 on 15 Mar 1941, VF-4 on 4 Aug 1943, VF-1A on
15 Nov 1946, and to VF-11 on 2 Aug 1948. The squadron lineage broke
when the squadron was disestablished on 15 Feb 1959. On 16 Feb 1959
VF-43 was redesignated VF-11 and adopted the Rippers insignia of the
previous VF-11.

So, no, Ski, your memory is not faulty, VF-11 was Red Rippers, but only
since 1948. The original VF-11 were Sun Downers which eventually
morphed into VF-111.

Interestingly, VF-42 was formed from VS-41 aboard USS Ranger in March
1941 and drew some of its pilots in a personnel swap with VF-41 and
shared with them flying duties in some of the first F4Fs delivered to
the fleet. My father was one of the VS-41 types who went to VF-42,
Fenton, then XO of the new fighting squadron, was from VF-41.

Rich

And I thought the Marine lineage was weird - great rundown, now when is the
pop quiz (awesome)
But let's see, if one were to do a book on Navy Squadrons the lead
identifier would be the "trade name", say
"Red Rippers" or "Sun Downers" and then the fill in chapters would be all
the unit designations and type aircraft flown by that unit

is that near right



"R Leonard" wrote in message
s.com...

Ski wrote:
was not VF-11 the "Red Rippers" or have I aged, VF-111 is/was
"Sundowners"
but not to worry - your keyboard may have typed 111 but it didn't come
out
that way - mine is like that all the time


Briefly, Sun Downers (note, properly two words, not one) were formed in
August 1942. Originally planned as a new incarnation of VF-42 (the
first CO was Charlie Fenton, the last CO of VF-42), assignment to
CVG-11 in October left the actual numbering done deal, VF-11. After
working up at North Island, the Air Group was due to take up residence
aboard USS Hornet (CV-8) and was headed west when the bad news came in.
VF-11 fetched up at Maui and it was here that the famous insignia of
two F4Fs shooting into a setting sun was designed, stenciling worked
out, and applied for the first time. The insignia was applied to the
instrument access panels on both sides forward of the cockpit and
personnel also received leather patches with the insignia stenciled on
them. Thus the beginnings of the Sun Downer insignia; my father (like
Fenton, a VF-42 alumnus) was the gent who designed the insignia. VF-11
proceeded to a tour in the Solomons from early April to mid July 1943
in F4Fs and a second tour, carrier based, in F6Fs.
After the war, the squadron was redesignated VF-11A on 15 Nov 1946 and
on 15 Jul 1948 redesignated VF-111. VF-111 was disestablished on 19
Jan 1959 and on the next day VA-156 was redesignated VF-111 20 Jan
1959. This new VF-111 adopted the insignia of the previous VF-111.
The squadron was briefly redesignated VF-26 from 1 Sep 1964 to 17 Sep
1964 and then reverted back to VF-111 until disestablished on 31 Mar
1995.

The Red Rippers could trace their origin back to 1 Feb 1927 when first
established as VF-5. The squadron went through many redesignations
over the years: to VF-5S on 1 Jul 1927, VF-5B in Jan 1928, VB-1B on 1
Jul 1928, VF-5B on 1 Jul 1930, VF-5S in Jul 1932, VF-5B in Apr 1933,
VF-4 on 1 Jul 1937, VF-41 on 15 Mar 1941, VF-4 on 4 Aug 1943, VF-1A on
15 Nov 1946, and to VF-11 on 2 Aug 1948. The squadron lineage broke
when the squadron was disestablished on 15 Feb 1959. On 16 Feb 1959
VF-43 was redesignated VF-11 and adopted the Rippers insignia of the
previous VF-11.

So, no, Ski, your memory is not faulty, VF-11 was Red Rippers, but only
since 1948. The original VF-11 were Sun Downers which eventually
morphed into VF-111.

Interestingly, VF-42 was formed from VS-41 aboard USS Ranger in March
1941 and drew some of its pilots in a personnel swap with VF-41 and
shared with them flying duties in some of the first F4Fs delivered to
the fleet. My father was one of the VS-41 types who went to VF-42,
Fenton, then XO of the new fighting squadron, was from VF-41.

Rich

Ski wrote:
And I thought the Marine lineage was weird - great rundown, now when is the
pop quiz (awesome)
But let's see, if one were to do a book on Navy Squadrons the lead
identifier would be the "trade name", say
"Red Rippers" or "Sun Downers" and then the fill in chapters would be all
the unit designations and type aircraft flown by that unit

is that near right


I suppose that calling them by their names rather than designations
might make it easier, but if you say "Sun Downers," I think VF-11
where you might think VF-111; and when you say "Red Rippers" you
think VF-11 and I think VF-4 . . . all a matter of exposure. When I
was growing up "USS Yorktown" meant CV-5, the other one was always
referred to as "CV-10." Even today, when someone mentions the
carrier parked at Patriots Point SC by name, I think, "oh, you mean
CV-10" and I never associate the name with some cruiser unless
someone specifically says something like, "you know, the cruiser."

Rich