Super Skycycle

"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote in message
...
Steve: I know what you are talking about. We got into a controversy when
we produced the PRA magazine for publishing a letter from Cdr. Wallis
outlining his opinions on the CLT and HS. I was kind of taken aback with
all of the sudden inflammatory kinds of statements putting down the non
CLT/HS ships as I had never encountered any problem flying my Benson and I
flew it in the desert turbulence and winds strong enough to allow hovering
takeoffs. My wife flew the ship and she had only soloed a Piper Colt. So
we had no experience to support the damning criticisms of the Non CLT/HS
ships. A conversation with Ken Brock trying to see if I had just lucked
out
and never experienced the close call in my Benson and he seemed to agree
more with Cdr. Wallis than the current PRA position. I tended to use Ken
as
my expert on gyro things.
BTW, as I recall, we had to set my Super Mac up even higher than the stock
Benson because I was driving a larger diameter prop. I also had the
outboard motor fuel tank that set below the seat. I'm sure that my thrust
line was above the vertical c.g. with full fuel. The little rock guard on
the Benson sure didn't qualify as a HS either.
I guess I was either luckier than the others, or a good gyro pilot, or my
ship was somehow more stable than the others. I know for sure there has
been oodles of opinions and calculations floating about supporting the
need
for CLT and HS. Now that I'm flying adefinitely unstable aircraft (helo)
my
dog is not in the CLT/HS fight.
--
Stuart Fields
Experimental Helo magazine
P. O. Box 1585
Inyokern, CA 93527
(760) 377-4478
(760) 408-9747 general and layout cell
(760) 608-1299 technical and advertising cell

www.vkss.com
www.experimentalhelo.com



I understand what you're saying about the inflammatory attitudes of some
folks. As a very raw newbe in the PRA, some of them had me seriously
wondering if I really wanted to be involved in this group? It was very
difficult to figure out who to believe and who not too. I think it's better
these days because there seems to be more of a consensus as to what's
appropriate in a pusher design and what's not. Back then, it seemed like
everyone had their own pet designs and very few folks ever agreed with each
other! ;-)

On the subject of the Bensen you learned to fly! One thing I remember
reading about the original design that Mr. Bensen developed and flew was
that it was relatively underpowered and/or used a smaller diameter prop than
most of the modern (the original Air Command comes to mind) gyros do. As a
result, the early generation Bensen's were much closer to centerline thrust
than the larger, stretched out versions that have come afterwards. Is this
something you'd agree with? Also, you mention putting a "super mac" on your
Bensen and having to raise the engine to accomodate a larger prop which
also, naturally enough, raised the engine's thrust line relative to the
aircrafts CG. Do you remember how far you had to raise the engine? Makes
me wonder if you were still under whatever magic number in thrust offset
that kept you in a safe zone. I know that machines like Jim Vanek's
SportCopter are not true centerline thrust designs but they seem to have
(from what I've read anyway) very favorable flight characteristics. It
makes me wonder if you simply didn't get far enough out of line for the bad
characteristics to be a significant issue. Either way, I'm glad it worked
out for you. I'd appreciate any comments you care to make on that.

Thanks,
Steve R.

Steve: My Benson was definitely not under powered. I had a ball type
airspeed indicator that as I recall topped out at 85. I stuck the ball all
the way up in the tube so far that I had to take a pipe cleaner and knock it
loose. I was never passed by any other gyro. At the time we figured that I
had done close to 100mph in straight and level flight. The Super Mac was
very light and under ideal conditions delivered 95hp. The engine mount was
raised some 2" to get the bigger prop installed. I can remember racing
another Benson that had a Super Mac but a smaller prop and a streamlined
body and I never saw them after I passed. The Benson manual recommended
taxiing without the rotor installed to get used to the steering. The first
time I did that I ground the wood front wheel brake almost in two and never
got the throttle much off idle. The thing felt like a dragster without the
rotor. After installing the rotor and getting it up to speed before taxiing
very far, the thing became much more controllable. As I recall the thrust
line on mine was just a couple of inches below my shoulders. Yeah if I was
cruising along at say 50 indicated and firewalled the throttle without some
aft cyclic, it would push my nose down a bit. I think that if I would have
had a side-by-side fuselage up front to provide additional drag as the nose
pitched forward, I might have had a different experience. I do remember
that once in a while doing those Brock spirals, (zero forward airspeed and
enough throttle to blow the tail around) the nose would sometimes get lower
and lower giving me the feeling it was going to try to split S. I never let
it get beyond about a 45 degree nose down before I stopped the spiral and
flew out.
Yep Vaneks bird looks pretty good and he can fly the thing. We have seen
his loop and roll and it is darned impressive. I've also seen him get off
the ground in a very short span. Take a look at the Magni in a front on
view with Greg Greminger on board. I know he weighs at least 250 and
imagine a passenger in the back. I can't believe that it is very close to a
CLT. The Magni does have a HS though and the tandem seating doesn't give a
real draggy front end.
I rode in the Sparrow Hawk prototype which has all the CLT/HS and found it
very stable but the control feel was monstrous. I had never flown anything
including a T-38 that had such heavy controls. Even the Bell 47 with the
hydraulics turned off didn't have such a heavy feel. Also the take-off roll
was as long as a Cessna 150 on a hot day.

--
Kathy Fields
Experimental Helo magazine
P. O. Box 1585
Inyokern, CA 93527
(760) 377-4478
(760) 408-9747 general and layout cell
(760) 608-1299 technical and advertising cell

www.vkss.com
www.experimentalhelo.com


"Steve R" wrote in message
...
"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote in message
...
Steve: I know what you are talking about. We got into a controversy
when
we produced the PRA magazine for publishing a letter from Cdr. Wallis
outlining his opinions on the CLT and HS. I was kind of taken aback
with
all of the sudden inflammatory kinds of statements putting down the non
CLT/HS ships as I had never encountered any problem flying my Benson and
I
flew it in the desert turbulence and winds strong enough to allow
hovering
takeoffs. My wife flew the ship and she had only soloed a Piper Colt.
So
we had no experience to support the damning criticisms of the Non CLT/HS
ships. A conversation with Ken Brock trying to see if I had just lucked
out
and never experienced the close call in my Benson and he seemed to agree
more with Cdr. Wallis than the current PRA position. I tended to use
Ken
as
my expert on gyro things.
BTW, as I recall, we had to set my Super Mac up even higher than the
stock
Benson because I was driving a larger diameter prop. I also had the
outboard motor fuel tank that set below the seat. I'm sure that my
thrust
line was above the vertical c.g. with full fuel. The little rock guard
on
the Benson sure didn't qualify as a HS either.
I guess I was either luckier than the others, or a good gyro pilot, or
my
ship was somehow more stable than the others. I know for sure there
has
been oodles of opinions and calculations floating about supporting the
need
for CLT and HS. Now that I'm flying adefinitely unstable aircraft
(helo)
my
dog is not in the CLT/HS fight.
--
Stuart Fields
Experimental Helo magazine
P. O. Box 1585
Inyokern, CA 93527
(760) 377-4478
(760) 408-9747 general and layout cell
(760) 608-1299 technical and advertising cell

www.vkss.com
www.experimentalhelo.com



I understand what you're saying about the inflammatory attitudes of some
folks. As a very raw newbe in the PRA, some of them had me seriously
wondering if I really wanted to be involved in this group? It was very
difficult to figure out who to believe and who not too. I think it's
better
these days because there seems to be more of a consensus as to what's
appropriate in a pusher design and what's not. Back then, it seemed like
everyone had their own pet designs and very few folks ever agreed with
each
other! ;-)

On the subject of the Bensen you learned to fly! One thing I remember
reading about the original design that Mr. Bensen developed and flew was
that it was relatively underpowered and/or used a smaller diameter prop
than
most of the modern (the original Air Command comes to mind) gyros do. As
a
result, the early generation Bensen's were much closer to centerline
thrust
than the larger, stretched out versions that have come afterwards. Is
this
something you'd agree with? Also, you mention putting a "super mac" on
your
Bensen and having to raise the engine to accomodate a larger prop which
also, naturally enough, raised the engine's thrust line relative to the
aircrafts CG. Do you remember how far you had to raise the engine? Makes
me wonder if you were still under whatever magic number in thrust offset
that kept you in a safe zone. I know that machines like Jim Vanek's
SportCopter are not true centerline thrust designs but they seem to have
(from what I've read anyway) very favorable flight characteristics. It
makes me wonder if you simply didn't get far enough out of line for the
bad
characteristics to be a significant issue. Either way, I'm glad it worked
out for you. I'd appreciate any comments you care to make on that.

Thanks,
Steve R.

Thanks Kathy, I appreciate the feedback! :-)

Fly Safe,
Steve R.


"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote in message
...
Steve: My Benson was definitely not under powered. I had a ball type
airspeed indicator that as I recall topped out at 85. I stuck the ball
all
the way up in the tube so far that I had to take a pipe cleaner and knock
it
loose. I was never passed by any other gyro. At the time we figured that
I
had done close to 100mph in straight and level flight. The Super Mac was
very light and under ideal conditions delivered 95hp. The engine mount
was
raised some 2" to get the bigger prop installed. I can remember racing
another Benson that had a Super Mac but a smaller prop and a streamlined
body and I never saw them after I passed. The Benson manual recommended
taxiing without the rotor installed to get used to the steering. The
first
time I did that I ground the wood front wheel brake almost in two and
never
got the throttle much off idle. The thing felt like a dragster without
the
rotor. After installing the rotor and getting it up to speed before
taxiing
very far, the thing became much more controllable. As I recall the thrust
line on mine was just a couple of inches below my shoulders. Yeah if I
was
cruising along at say 50 indicated and firewalled the throttle without
some
aft cyclic, it would push my nose down a bit. I think that if I would
have
had a side-by-side fuselage up front to provide additional drag as the
nose
pitched forward, I might have had a different experience. I do remember
that once in a while doing those Brock spirals, (zero forward airspeed and
enough throttle to blow the tail around) the nose would sometimes get
lower
and lower giving me the feeling it was going to try to split S. I never
let
it get beyond about a 45 degree nose down before I stopped the spiral and
flew out.
Yep Vaneks bird looks pretty good and he can fly the thing. We have seen
his loop and roll and it is darned impressive. I've also seen him get off
the ground in a very short span. Take a look at the Magni in a front on
view with Greg Greminger on board. I know he weighs at least 250 and
imagine a passenger in the back. I can't believe that it is very close to
a
CLT. The Magni does have a HS though and the tandem seating doesn't give
a
real draggy front end.
I rode in the Sparrow Hawk prototype which has all the CLT/HS and found
it
very stable but the control feel was monstrous. I had never flown
anything
including a T-38 that had such heavy controls. Even the Bell 47 with the
hydraulics turned off didn't have such a heavy feel. Also the take-off
roll
was as long as a Cessna 150 on a hot day.

--
Kathy Fields
Experimental Helo magazine
P. O. Box 1585
Inyokern, CA 93527
(760) 377-4478
(760) 408-9747 general and layout cell
(760) 608-1299 technical and advertising cell

www.vkss.com
www.experimentalhelo.com

Stuart & Kathryn Fields wrote:

skis down his trap line landing on the frozen river. I doubt that the CHP
would find it very amusing tho to see a gyro land on the highway, convert to
MC and drive off. Probably get busted for excessive width in the gyro mode.


I was thinking about the "wide" profile and I believe you, they would
probably ticket a pilot for that. But would the ticket be for a traffic
violation and untouchable by the FAA????? It's a thought but there are
so many unrestricted grass strips around I doubt it would ever be
necessary to land on a public road.

--

boB
copter.six

boB,

When I'm done with my current flying gig, I'm getting into an autogyro.
Probably one of the more reputable ultralights, but it will be an
autogyro. I figure it will be more fun than a Harley. I'm also hoping
for a bit more hospitable climate than the one I currently live in.

And my last thought today is, wait till Orange County Choppers gets a
hold of that one!

Linc

boB wrote:
Has anyone seen, or read about, that Skycycle?



http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/sscycle/gallery.htm

http://javimoya.com/blog/youtube_en.php

http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/sscycle/images/002.jpg

http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/sscycle/images/012.jpg

http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/sscycle/images/001.jpg

http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/sscycle/images/010.jpg




--

boB
copter.six

"Linc" wrote in message
ups.com...
boB,

When I'm done with my current flying gig, I'm getting into an autogyro.
Probably one of the more reputable ultralights, but it will be an
autogyro. I figure it will be more fun than a Harley. I'm also hoping
for a bit more hospitable climate than the one I currently live in.

And my last thought today is, wait till Orange County Choppers gets a
hold of that one!

Linc

I would be grateful if you posted your research on which Gyros you looked at
and of course which one you choose and why. I really do like the SkyCycle I
just wish it had more protection for the occupants. It doesn't have to be
enclosed though.

I'm waiting to see one wind up at Sturgis. What a trip that would be,
flying in.

I wonder what the rule would be at Oshkosh? Could a person fly in, get a
tiedown spot, then drive the skycycle in and out of the airport for maybe
some gormet dining.


--
boB
copter.six


U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas
5NM West of Gray Army/Killeen Regional (KGRK)

boB wrote:


I'm waiting to see one wind up at Sturgis. What a trip that would be,
flying in.

I wonder what the rule would be at Oshkosh? Could a person fly in, get a
tiedown spot, then drive the skycycle in and out of the airport for maybe
some gormet dining.



Has one of these EVER been licenced for street use in the US? The prop
as a propulsion method while driving down the street seems like a law
suite just itching to happen.

601XL Builder wrote:
boB wrote:


I'm waiting to see one wind up at Sturgis. What a trip that would be,
flying in.

I wonder what the rule would be at Oshkosh? Could a person fly in, get a
tiedown spot, then drive the skycycle in and out of the airport for maybe
some gormet dining.



Has one of these EVER been licenced for street use in the US? The prop
as a propulsion method while driving down the street seems like a law
suite just itching to happen.

Hey buddy,

http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/sscycle/images/010.jpg

Take another look at the power shasfts going to both rear wheels.

The Monk

Flyingmonk wrote:
601XL Builder wrote:
boB wrote:

I'm waiting to see one wind up at Sturgis. What a trip that would be,
flying in.

I wonder what the rule would be at Oshkosh? Could a person fly in, get a
tiedown spot, then drive the skycycle in and out of the airport for maybe
some gormet dining.


Has one of these EVER been licenced for street use in the US? The prop
as a propulsion method while driving down the street seems like a law
suite just itching to happen.

Hey buddy,

http://www.thebutterflyllc.com/sscycle/images/010.jpg

Take another look at the power shasfts going to both rear wheels.

The Monk


Well I'll be. I looked for such on some other photos and never saw it. I
do note that it still missing a license plate though so the first part
of my question is still out there.

boB,

It's gonna be a while. I have a few more years to go before I can put
that (Ret.) after all my information. I remember looking at a few that
were decent that I had somehow found through the discussion you had
with Kevin about simulators. A couple of them had a lot of enclosure,
especially the side-by-side duals. Of course, those may not have been
ultralight category. I'm gonna use mine like people ride their
Harleys...good weather on a weekend, go for a flight. The ones that I
have looked at are the Air Command (www.aircommand.com) Commander Sport
and the Sportcopter (www.sportcopter.com) Lightning gyros. Air
Command's ultralight appears to be out of production, so I may have to
go with a full-size gyro (maybe a tandem to give the kids rides), but
it about doubles the price.

I'll keep you posted if I find any good options.

Linc

boB wrote:
"Linc" wrote in message
ups.com...
boB,

When I'm done with my current flying gig, I'm getting into an autogyro.
Probably one of the more reputable ultralights, but it will be an
autogyro. I figure it will be more fun than a Harley. I'm also hoping
for a bit more hospitable climate than the one I currently live in.

And my last thought today is, wait till Orange County Choppers gets a
hold of that one!

Linc

I would be grateful if you posted your research on which Gyros you looked at
and of course which one you choose and why. I really do like the SkyCycle I
just wish it had more protection for the occupants. It doesn't have to be
enclosed though.

I'm waiting to see one wind up at Sturgis. What a trip that would be,
flying in.

I wonder what the rule would be at Oshkosh? Could a person fly in, get a
tiedown spot, then drive the skycycle in and out of the airport for maybe
some gormet dining.


--
boB
copter.six


U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas
5NM West of Gray Army/Killeen Regional (KGRK)