Panel mount IFR GPS for training ...

Find a new instructor.

Learn the 'system' first - airways, navigation, flight control, approaches,
power settings. Get IFR ticket WITHOUT the GPS. Then once you are pretty
good without the GPS, add it later as a bonus. If you learn to rely on the
GPS, then you are in trouble when you lose it. It the GPS is an ADDITIONAL
instrument, and you learn how to use it, then youi will be a more complete
IFR pilot
"Bud_of_yours" wrote in message
ups.com...
Last weekend I bought an IFR equiped '68 Cherokee 140 to get my
Instrument ticket in ... ( I flew it from Bedford, MA home to
Savannah, GA in one day. But, that is another story. )

The guy that I'm going to use as my CFII came out and looked the plane
over and told me that while the plane is technically IFR equiped it
still needs a few things. ( Isn't that typical??)

The plane is equiped with a KMA-24 audio panel with markers, KX-155
w/KI-209 nav/comm with glide slope, KX-125 nav/comm, and a KT-76
transponder. I also had pitot heat installed during the prepurchase
annual/inspection.

According to my instructor I can get my instrument ticket in the plane
as equiped, however in order to be a more well rounded instrument pilot
I really need to add an IFR certified GPS to my panel.

Question #1. In order to get my Instrument ticket tucked safely in my
pocket do I really need to be concerned about learning GPS approches,
etc.?

Question #2. If I do decide to add a GPS to my panel what is the
best/least expensive way to do it. GNS 155XL? KLN-94?

I don't plan on keeping this plane forever. And I don't want to invest
a ton of $$$ in it.

Any comments, suggestions, experiences would be appreciated.

I would add that you would actually be better off with GPS while you do
your training.

I think you meant (and the rest of your post supports) "without" the GPS.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

pgbnh wrote:
Find a new instructor.

Learn the 'system' first - airways, navigation, flight control, approaches,
power settings. Get IFR ticket WITHOUT the GPS.

Probably should skip VORs and NDBs too, stay away from that fancy new
stuff and just stick with good old radio ranges.

-robert

In article .com,
"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

Doug wrote:
A GPS will probably just complicate getting your IFR ticket. Suggest
you start without it, talk to your instructor and look at what other
pilots in your area are doing. Also, talk to your DE. Yes an IFR GPS
is a great instrument to have, but it's actually easier to learn on
traditional instruments.

I teach in G1000 aircraft as well as some pre-GPS aircraft. I disagree
with your statement. Doing a PT for an ILS with a moving map is much
easier than trying to figure entry procedures.

That's just the point, Robert.
The student must first mentally learn the process and concept.
Unless they own their own moving map GPS equipped aircraft, they may not
always have access so such an equipped aircraft if they rent.
The moving map helps one refine their procedures once they comprehend
and understand the concepts. The student has to first learn to fly the
needles before flying a picture.

OK, I'm going to have to break from the pack here. I think you should
get the GPS installed for the following reasons:

1) It WILL increase the resale value of the aircraft. Of course not as
much as the upgrade price but more than adding another NAV/COM. Don't
take my word for it. Browse the ads on ASO and Trade-A-Plane and
compare for yourself.
2) GPS is the wave of the future and is arguably the current state of
the art. There is no question if it may or may not "catch on" it HAS
and is here to stay. If you follow the other posters' lines of thought,
you should just mark the glideslope inop and get your ticket using just
the LOC and VOR approaches. But why learn ILS approaches? Because
they're the standard precision approach types and they're very common.
The same rationale should apply to GPS technology.
3) In my opinion, GPS approaches are much simpler than other
non-precision approaches because the non-overlay ones (as in standard
T-types) are pretty much the same no matter the airport. Learning them
will be at worst no more difficult than the myriad of VOR approaches
out there. That said, there are other aspects (i.e. enroute and
regulatory) that you need to be up to speed on if you head to the
examiner with a "slant Golf" on your flight plan. Still simple stuff
IMO.
4) It WILL make you a better pilot with more tools under your belt. If
you're going to learn them anyway why wait till afterward when you are
more likely to learn it in a half-assed way.
5) Could be a safety move. Picture going missed and having all the
airports with only GPS approaches available to you. Could take some of
the pucker factor out.

I can't believe it was suggested you get another instructor. Why,
because he has the opinion that you should know more than know less??

As for which IFR GPS to install, get quotes from various shops for the
everything needed to get the aircraft IFR certified. Many of the older
units need some extra things such as annunciators that can quickly add
to the price. Also, don't be so quick to write-off a Garmin 430. I did
initially until I priced everything out and realized that to get the
same capabilities in the 430, it would cost more with USED equipment.

All you need to get your instrument rating is one NAV/COM and a
transponder (I believe even only and ADF instead of the NAV/COM) if all
your interested in is the ticket.

Marco



Bud_of_yours wrote:
Last weekend I bought an IFR equiped '68 Cherokee 140 to get my
Instrument ticket in ... ( I flew it from Bedford, MA home to
Savannah, GA in one day. But, that is another story. )

The guy that I'm going to use as my CFII came out and looked the plane
over and told me that while the plane is technically IFR equiped it
still needs a few things. ( Isn't that typical??)

The plane is equiped with a KMA-24 audio panel with markers, KX-155
w/KI-209 nav/comm with glide slope, KX-125 nav/comm, and a KT-76
transponder. I also had pitot heat installed during the prepurchase
annual/inspection.

According to my instructor I can get my instrument ticket in the plane
as equiped, however in order to be a more well rounded instrument pilot
I really need to add an IFR certified GPS to my panel.

Question #1. In order to get my Instrument ticket tucked safely in my
pocket do I really need to be concerned about learning GPS approches,
etc.?

Question #2. If I do decide to add a GPS to my panel what is the
best/least expensive way to do it. GNS 155XL? KLN-94?

I don't plan on keeping this plane forever. And I don't want to invest
a ton of $$$ in it.

Any comments, suggestions, experiences would be appreciated.

Robert M. Gary writes:

I teach in G1000 aircraft as well as some pre-GPS aircraft. I disagree
with your statement. Doing a PT for an ILS with a moving map is much
easier than trying to figure entry procedures.

Until the G1000 reboots, that is.

Besides, not all aircraft have G1000s installed, fortunately.

--
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Robert M. Gary writes:

Probably should skip VORs and NDBs too, stay away from that fancy new
stuff and just stick with good old radio ranges.

Learn to use what you know you will have. Then learn to use what you
are likely to have. Then learn to use what you'd like to have.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Bud_of_yours wrote:
..

Question #1. In order to get my Instrument ticket tucked safely in my
pocket do I really need to be concerned about learning GPS approches,
etc.?

If its in the plane, you have to be able to complete an approach with
it. To get your ticket you need to do 2 non precision approaches and a
precision approach. An ILS, a VOR and a LOC approach will pass the
muster on the checkride. You dont HAVE to have a GPS in the plane to get
, nor maintain an instrument rating. So your instructor is right.

That being said, you really need to do your homework and learn about the
GPS (er.. RNAV) approaches, because they are becoming more and more
widespread, while there is an active effort to decommission land based
approaches based on say.. ADF's.. If used properly you can also use the
GPS features for situational awareness while flying a land based
approaches. So again, in my opinion, your instructor is right, again.


Question #2. If I do decide to add a GPS to my panel what is the
best/least expensive way to do it. GNS 155XL? KLN-94?

A used KLN 89B can be had for less than $1000 (I have bought 2..).. same
for an older KLN-90B. Expect another AMU to get it all installed with
what it needs.. more if your CDI's aren't compatible. Based on what you
listed, it may not be (the KI-109A IS, however, but thats $$$) It would
be wise to sit down with an avionics guy of good repute, and use that as
a jumping off point.

Based on what you have listed installed, expect to either 1) buy a 2nd
CDI (GPS only, or share it with your KX-125 if you like)... 2) replace
the KI-109 with a KI-109A (AND a switching relay to switch between
showing GPS and the ILS on the CDI- pretty much a must if you share a
CDI between a GPS and a NAV) 3) also you will need to have an
annunciator display installed in the primary scan area that indicates
when passing waypoints, when an approach is active, and shows when an
approach is armed versus active.. 4) you will also need to have your
encoder tied to the GPS, or a second encoder installed, which is tied to
the GPS to give altitude data to the GPS for IFR approaches. These
tidbits are specific to the older GPS's, not the newer, more expensive
WAAS capable ones. Again, it would be wise to sit down with an avionics
guy of good repute, and use that as a jumping off point.

The early Kings (89B and 90B) arent the most capable, snazziest units,
but they get the job done. I've shot approaches on them before in
actual, and felt comfortable with the unit (but had spent MUCH time
getting used to it/comfortable with it). The moving map is small, but
still is better than NO moving map.

If you decide to upgrade, the KLN-94 has the color screen and is a
direct drop in replacement (same tray) as the KLN-89B. Some features may
require a little ADDED wiring, but if the back of the rack is
accessible, this is trivial - not much more than a few more D-sub pins
pushed into a 25 or 37 pin connector - compared to an initial install.


Good Luck
Dave

My background on this: Non-A&P, Homebuilder, installed a KLN 89B,
KX-125's, Terra Tri-Nav CDI's in an under construction Velocity, with a
goal on making it IFR capable /G. Have the install manuals on the KX-125
and KLN-89B.

Mxsmanic wrote:

Besides, not all aircraft have G1000s installed, fortunately.

This is the real crux of the matter with the new stuff. In the old days, I
could jump into pretty much any airplane equipped with VOR receivers and
figure out how to use them. There just wasn't that much functionality, so
the UIs were all pretty much the same.

With modern GPS, glass panel, etc, it's a whole new story. I've spent a
lot of time over the past few years showing people how the CNX-80 (GNS-480)
works. Basic proficiency take 10 flight hours spread out over 4-6 flights,
and that assumes the student puts in some effort to study the manuals
between flights. I would expect another 10 hours of practice on their own
before they launched into any serious IMC.

And, once they have mastered that, they have learned how to fly ONE model
of GPS. If they move to another unit, some of the knowledge will cary
over, but a lot of it will be starting from scratch.

Roy Smith writes:

This is the real crux of the matter with the new stuff. In the old days, I
could jump into pretty much any airplane equipped with VOR receivers and
figure out how to use them. There just wasn't that much functionality, so
the UIs were all pretty much the same.

With modern GPS, glass panel, etc, it's a whole new story. I've spent a
lot of time over the past few years showing people how the CNX-80 (GNS-480)
works. Basic proficiency take 10 flight hours spread out over 4-6 flights,
and that assumes the student puts in some effort to study the manuals
between flights. I would expect another 10 hours of practice on their own
before they launched into any serious IMC.

And, once they have mastered that, they have learned how to fly ONE model
of GPS. If they move to another unit, some of the knowledge will cary
over, but a lot of it will be starting from scratch.

Have you noticed what all these fancy stuff is starting to resemble?
It's starting to look just like ... the world of computers. That's no
a coincidence, but it's a severe turn for the worse.

--
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