Wind limits - small single engine aircraft

I don't see that anyone has mentioned the demonstrated
crosswind component, which is in the P.O.H. for certified aircraft.
You may do better, but that's the best number the manufacturer
achieved with a new aircraft and a very good pilot.

I would suggest that it might be the highest number that the lawyers
would permit to be included in the flight manual.

I have never looked it up, but my first instructor asserted that it was the
amount of crosswind in which it was demonstrated that the (tricycle gear)
aircraft would safely complete a landing without any crosswind correction
being applied.

Again, I have not verified the assertion; but it is certainly not the worst
case condition under which the aircraft can be landed safely by a highly
proficient pilot...

Peter

"Peter Dohm" wrote in message
...
I don't see that anyone has mentioned the demonstrated
crosswind component, which is in the P.O.H. for certified aircraft.
You may do better, but that's the best number the manufacturer
achieved with a new aircraft and a very good pilot.

I would suggest that it might be the highest number that the lawyers
would permit to be included in the flight manual.

I have never looked it up, but my first instructor asserted that it was
the
amount of crosswind in which it was demonstrated that the (tricycle gear)
aircraft would safely complete a landing without any crosswind correction
being applied.

Again, I have not verified the assertion; but it is certainly not the
worst
case condition under which the aircraft can be landed safely by a highly
proficient pilot...

Peter


Just the highest crosswind experienced and 'safely handled' during the
certification process, it appears. Here's a link to an article on the
subject, and it seems to agree with other references I found regarding the
DCC.

http://www.swaviator.com/html/issueMA05/Basics3405.html

"The 15-knot Demonstrated Crosswind Component is not a limitation, per se;
it's just a simple statement that sometime during certification the airplane
was landed successfully, without using any unusual skills, in a 15-knot
crosswind. But, remember the pilot who demonstrated the crosswind landing
was a very experienced test pilot. Are you as competent as he or she was?"

Your instructor was wrong. Seriously wrong, at that.

mike

"Peter Dohm" wrote in message
...

I have never looked it up, but my first instructor asserted that it was
the
amount of crosswind in which it was demonstrated that the (tricycle gear)
aircraft would safely complete a landing without any crosswind correction
being applied.

Peter

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 22:39:03 GMT, "WestCDA" wrote:

I don't see that anyone has mentioned the demonstrated
crosswind component, which is in the P.O.H. for certified aircraft. You
may do better, but that's the best number the manufacturer achieved with a
new aircraft and a very good pilot. If the calculated crosswind based on
the wind speed, direction, and available runway exceeds the DCC for your
aircraft, it's cause for at least caution if not an outright scrub of the
flight.

That statement, for small Part 91 aircraft, is not the case.

The demonstrated crosswind component is merely what the wind happened to be
on some day when the crosswind was blowing at least strongly enough to meet
certification requirements. The 14 CFR 23 requirements are that this value
be at least 0.2 Vso.

========================================
§ 23.233 Directional stability and control.

(a) A 90 degree cross-component of wind velocity, demonstrated to be safe
for taxiing, takeoff, and landing must be established and must be not less
than 0.2 VSO.
======================================

It is not even close to being a limitation.


--ron

========================================
§ 23.233 Directional stability and control.

(a) A 90 degree cross-component of wind velocity, demonstrated to be safe
for taxiing, takeoff, and landing must be established and must be not less
than 0.2 VSO.
======================================

It is not even close to being a limitation.


Most interesting, and I should have read it before. In any case, it debunks
a lot of stories from a lot of sources.

Peter

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 22:39:03 GMT, "WestCDA"
wrote:

"Stealth Pilot" wrote in message
.. .

you should be able to fly in conditions where the windsock is
horizontal from any direction.

I can't say I agree with this. I think it's worth pointing out that a
windsock is horizontal at 150 kts, just the same as it is at 15 kts. We had
conditions here a couple weeks ago (Rocky Mountain foothills)where the
windspeed at field elevation was gusting to 80 and 90 miles and hour.

do you know how to guess at the wind speed from the windsock angle?
its a useful skill.

Yes, up to the point the windsock is horizontal, after which you need a
better tool. I don't see that anyone has mentioned the demonstrated
crosswind component, which is in the P.O.H. for certified aircraft.

wrong wrong wrong!
if the certification test flight is done in nil wind and there isnt a
windy day available for ages then the design may have a low or no
demonstrated crosswind component ....for the simple fact that there
wasnt a crosswind available.
you are reading far too much into this figure.
it is really just the crosswind component that a demonstration landing
was made in for the purposes of certification.


You
may do better, but that's the best number the manufacturer achieved with a
new aircraft and a very good pilot.

wrong wrong wrong! that is not what the figure is about at all.

If the calculated crosswind based on
the wind speed, direction, and available runway exceeds the DCC for your
aircraft, it's cause for at least caution if not an outright scrub of the
flight.

yes caution in that you will need to work hard for the landing.


If you're landing at an airport with an overly strong crosswind, and fuel or
other concerns don't allow finding another airport with a more favorable
runway, lack of control authority may make landing on and maintaining the
runway extremely difficult if not impossible.

then dont maintain the runway. land diagonally across it.
if the wind is so strong that you can only find a taxiway into wind
then land on the taxiway.(advise people of what you are doing of
course)
locally here Bunbury is often unlandable in my aircraft because of
strong rotors off the adjacent row of pine trees but 20 miles away
there sits Busselton airstrip which is in the open and better oriented
to the predominant winds.
.....you've got the idea though.
Stealth Pilot

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 22:05:40 +0900, Stealth Pilot
wrote:

On 19 Jan 2007 22:53:33 -0800, wrote:

I was wondering what people view as their limitations in terms of wind.
I'm talking 172 / Warrior territory here.

Clearly this is a personal decision, based on your perceptions of your
own skills, the aircraft you are flying, the specific conditions on the
day (E.g. how gusty, reports of LLWS & turbulence), your risk
tolerance, etc.



if you cant fly with the windsock horizontal you'd better not try
flying crosscountry because one day you will find it horizontal and at
the end of a long flight you might not have enough fuel to go anywhere
else.

Why not?

If the pilot knows the fuel burn and how long they've been airborn
there is no excuse for running out of fuel.

I'm paranoid about fuel. If the destination ever even looked close to
cutting into reserves I'd land early and either top off the tanks or
at least add enough to get to the destination with ample fuel reserve.



there is no bravado to flying in strong winds. it is just difficult
and demanding flying. it can be done though.

do you know how to guess at the wind speed from the windsock angle?
its a useful skill.

Stealth (windsock horizontal in any direction) Pilot
Australia
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On 19 Jan 2007 22:53:33 -0800, wrote:

I was wondering what people view as their limitations in terms of wind.
I'm talking 172 / Warrior territory here.

Clearly this is a personal decision, based on your perceptions of your
own skills, the aircraft you are flying, the specific conditions on the
day (E.g. how gusty, reports of LLWS & turbulence), your risk
tolerance, etc.

But I'm interested in what the various opinions are. How much wind is
too much to fly, for you? And how much crosswind component? Does your
max crosswind component vary with windspeed? And how about how gusty it
is? Clearly if it's more gusty that's a bad thing, but how gusty is too
gusty?

Of course I have my own views on this but I'm wondering what others
think. And by the way the context is that I have decided to cancel my
flight tomorrow (Boston area) due to winds, but I'm still hoping to fly
on Sunday.

I guess as an aside, what are the scariest windy conditions you've ever
flown in? Would you do it again?

Thanks

Tom

I think you made a wise decision for today. I see winds forecast on the
order of 27G44 with 40-50K winds out of the NW at lower altitudes. It
probably would not be a comfortable flying day, although you could check
PIREPS later on for reports of turbulence.

Having said that, I note that there are plenty of airports where the
forecast crosswind component is minimal. For example, at KBOS, for much of
the day, there would be zero crosswind component on runway 29.

At KASH, where I'm currently located, the closest forecast winds are from
KMHT and are 30020G35 -- 30023G44

KASH would be landing R32 so the crosswind component would be 7G15 kts
(approximately). That would be within my capabilities (in my a/c).

Sometimes, s&^*t happens. I recall a flight to New Orleans a number of
years ago. Hurricane forecasts weren't as precise as they are today, and a
storm in the Gulf turned into a hurricane and was heading towards New
Orleans as were we. I landed at Lakefront in 40-50Kt winds. But I had a
Plan B which included the fact that the winds were steady (no gust at all
being reported) and that there was a runway at New Orleans International
that was aligned directly into the wind.

Another technique you can use in heavy wind conditions is to land at an
angle to the runway, especially if the runway is wide. KCEF comes to mind,
but others can be used.

You should consider going up with an instructor in windy conditions, so you
can explore your limits in this area.


--ron

wrote in message
oups.com...
Clearly this is a personal decision, based on your perceptions of your
own skills, the aircraft you are flying, the specific conditions on the
day (E.g. how gusty, reports of LLWS & turbulence), your risk
tolerance, etc.


The title of this thread may be a little misleading to a newbie. Wind down
the runway is a GOOD thing that actually makes landings and takeoffs easier and
safer. Ground speed is less on landing, ground roll is less on takeoff and the
takeoff angle over the runway is far improved. In the pattern, winds can make
the downwind portion go so fast that a new pilot might get behind the airplane,
but if you are flying a slow plane and doing a crab for a proper base leg track,
you have a wonderful view of the runway while on your base leg, and your turn
onto final can actually be far less than 90 degrees. Short field landings into
a headwind are far easier, and can actually fool you into believing you have
skills that you don't.

Crosswinds and gusty conditions are a 'nuther whole matter. If you go out
to the airport and find those conditions, rather than canceling, it might be a
good time to seek an idle CFI and use the opportunity to work on skills and
self-confidence.

Vaughn CFIG

Even a steady 25 knot wind directly down the runway _can_ catch the
unwary off guard (windshear).

I'll never forget that lesson... OAK was calling a 15 knot wind, no
gusts, coming right down the nines... I had my instructor with me at
the time. I noticed during the crosswind that my correction seemed
rather extreme (over 30 degrees) to stay on course, turned final, and
maintained a book 75mph IAS down final.

All of a sudden I hit the windshear layer, 35 knot wind above, 15 knot
wind below- and suddenly I had no where NEAR the kinetic energy I was
expecting, still 100 feet above the ground and well short of the
threshold.

My instructor saved that one, and Iearned a valuable lesson. One of
two times in my flying life I've made the 'Your Plane!' call.





On Jan 20, 9:01 am, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote:
wrote in ooglegroups.com...

Clearly this is a personal decision, based on your perceptions of your
own skills, the aircraft you are flying, the specific conditions on the
day (E.g. how gusty, reports of LLWS & turbulence), your risk
tolerance, etc. The title of this thread may be a little misleading to a newbie. Wind down
the runway is a GOOD thing that actually makes landings and takeoffs easier and
safer. Ground speed is less on landing, ground roll is less on takeoff and the
takeoff angle over the runway is far improved. In the pattern, winds can make
the downwind portion go so fast that a new pilot might get behind the airplane,
but if you are flying a slow plane and doing a crab for a proper base leg track,
you have a wonderful view of the runway while on your base leg, and your turn
onto final can actually be far less than 90 degrees. Short field landings into
a headwind are far easier, and can actually fool you into believing you have
skills that you don't.

Crosswinds and gusty conditions are a 'nuther whole matter. If you go out
to the airport and find those conditions, rather than canceling, it might be a
good time to seek an idle CFI and use the opportunity to work on skills and
self-confidence.

Vaughn CFIG