Growth in soaring

Frank Whiteley wrote:
I think the mystique of flying is somewhat diluted. When I was young,
few of my peers had ever been in an airplane, but we lived close to
significant aviation activity, so our imaginations and dreams of
flying were ever present. Today, a lot of youngsters have jetted
across the country or the oceans. What do they do? Play games, close
the window shades, sleep, or watch movies. Few look out the window to
try and figure out where they are or watch the changing clouds or even
the auroras. A few I've spoken with didn't consider it a particularly
pleasant experience, but a means to get to whatever was at the end of
the flight. Hardly inspiring.

And who can blame us? I'm one of those guys in his 20s that everybody
seems to despair about attracting, I've been soaring since last summer and
enjoying every moment, and I hate airliners with a deep passion.

When I was little I loved to fly commercially. I even got to meet the
captain and sit in the cockpit of a DC-10. (Good luck trying that one
today!) But as I grew out of the child-sized seats, realized just how tiny
and annoying those windows are, got more and more tired of the growing
stupidity of airport security, and just racked up a lot of commercial
flying, I got tired of the whole thing. Flying is great, but being stuffed
into a seat that's three sizes too small, packed into an aluminum tube
like sardines with no control over your destiny for hours, you can see how
it could be considered unpleasant.

Airliners are the busses of air travel. You find people who are fascinated
with trains, but hardly ever with busses. I think that if you want to
attract people to soaring, avoid comparisons with airliners as much as
possible. Other than the fact that both involve being high above the
ground, they have almost nothing in common.

I think there's no problem generating mystique around soaring, in fact I
think there may be a little too much of it. People need to know that it's
something that *they* can do themselves, not just superhuman masters of
the air. Most people probably know where their local airport is and have
some idea of how to procure an airplane ride if they felt like it, but how
many people know where their nearest glider operation is located? How many
realize that they could start learning as early as the next weekend and
they could be flying solo in just a couple dozen flights?

Maybe I'm subconsciously transferring my pre-soaring thoughts onto the
public at large, but that's how I see it.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

Michael Ash wrote:

the air. Most people probably know where their local airport is and have
some idea of how to procure an airplane ride if they felt like it, but how
many people know where their nearest glider operation is located? How many
realize that they could start learning as early as the next weekend and
they could be flying solo in just a couple dozen flights?

What about saying the truth to young people? They could be flying solo after
a whole season generally, which is a huge personal investment.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

Would you want to hang around
with guys/gals 3-5 times your own age? Certainly not! Operations like
Caesar Creek in OH or Harris Hill in NY are the shining exception.
They have very active youth group

Exactly. Don't recruit individuals, create a program. See
www.ssa.org/test/Docs/GovNews/4Background.pdf
HHSC use to be the only one, Now there are a growing number of
exceptions like TSA, CCSC...

--JHC

On Mar 16, 3:32 pm, "Ramy" wrote:
I don't think that casinos, watercrafts or off road vehicles compete
with soaring. The decline in soaring is perfectly correlated with the
birth of hang gliding and later paragliding. I am often puzzled about
the amount of effort put into trying to recruit youth into soaring.
Our true market is the middle age and not youth. I think it is largely
a waste of efforts to try to attract youth. It is very hard to compete
with hang gliding and paragliding, which appeals much more to
youngsters who are actually interested in aviation due to their low
cost, simplicity and quick learning. I dare to assume that most
youngsters which are attracted to gliders are those who are mostly
interested in a career in aviation.
The true market is middle aged power pilots and veterans hang/para
glider pilots who are ready to expand their horizon and can afford
the cost and time involved. I don't think enough effort is given to
market our sport to this segment, especially not to the hang gliding
and paragliding world (where I came from). Just my humble opinion.

Ramy

All,

Just a few thoughts on the subject.

I too come from the Hang Gliding community and agree with Ramy's
comments. In the late 70s when I began flying HGs the average age was
approximately 22 (I was 19), when I retired from HGs seven years ago
the average age was approximately 48! It's an old and varied story in
both sports HG and Sailplanes.

I moved into the Sailplane world because "I love the act of soaring" I
have ever since the first time I observed a Hang Glider in 1977
thermal up to cloud base, turn down wind and go XC, I bought a Hang
Glider one week later. Many years later, when my body began to rebel
(numb hands, back problems) while hanging in a harness for hours at a
time it lost the allure. Now I fly Sailplanes and the passion for
soaring is stronger than ever, comfortable and cool looking cockpit,
great electronic toys and fantastic performance with unlimited soaring
possibilities. This is candy to all Hanglider pilots, if you put one
in a modern or semi-modern cockpit his eyes will light up and "bingo"
you have a hooked, life time member, read active & engaged. The
passion for soaring (remember they survived 20 or 30 years of
Hangliding) and intuitive thermalling skills these guys can bring to
your club is quite contagious, I've observed this first hand as I'm
sure many of you have too at your clubs.

It's just one piece of the story but I think we're missing the boat by
not actively tapping into this rich source of potential and prolific
Sailplane pilots whose demographics are a marketers dream for this
sport. This group is aging and perhaps won't be avaliable down the
road but if you bring them in now they will be involved the until they
reluctantly must retire from soaring.

Rick -21

.... I've been trying to post this for days from my usual account and
it's not been working. Another try:

I am often puzzled about
the amount of effort put into trying to recruit youth into soaring.
Our true market is the middle age and not youth.

Youth are the one steady renewable resource, more born every minute
not already committed to other things. Soaring is not just one
generation's opportunity (yours, mine...), and what membership
organization does NOT recruit youth? Also ("soaring needs youth") the
sport works better with young muscles and minds, people willing to
work cheap and long as towpilots, club officers etc., who buy old
equipment, learn fast. And ("youth need soaring") it is a noble role
in society for us to offer soaring to adolescents (as education,
career-building, socialization, for which sailplane communities are
excellent) and many existing glider guiders really enjoy taking part.
See:

http://www.ssa.org/Youth/youthships.asp
http://www.coloradosoaring.org/ssa/ssay/ycom.htm
http://www.greeleynet.com/~jhpc/SSAYouth.ppt
http://www.coloradosoaring.org/ssa/ssay/sailyth.htm

Hang-glider pilots sprang out of the 1970s, paragliders out of the
1990s, but soaring had already been a passion of people from the
1930s, 1950s... all were young once and many (most?) got hooked in
their youth.

I don't think enough effort is given to
market our sport to this segment, especially not to the hang gliding
and paragliding world (where I came from).

I see more fresh high-level individualist pilots from that "world"
than anywhere else. So whatever is happening is already working.
Thank you.

--JHC

On Mar 16, 10:32 pm, "Ramy" wrote:
I don't think that casinos, watercrafts or off road vehicles compete
with soaring. The decline in soaring is perfectly correlated with the
birth of hang gliding and later paragliding. I am often puzzled about
the amount of effort put into trying to recruit youth into soaring.
Our true market is the middle age and not youth. I think it is largely
a waste of efforts to try to attract youth. It is very hard to compete
with hang gliding and paragliding, which appeals much more to
youngsters who are actually interested in aviation due to their low
cost, simplicity and quick learning. I dare to assume that most
youngsters which are attracted to gliders are those who are mostly
interested in a career in aviation.
The true market is middle aged power pilots and veterans hang/para
glider pilots who are ready to expand their horizon and can afford
the cost and time involved. I don't think enough effort is given to
market our sport to this segment, especially not to the hang gliding
and paragliding world (where I came from). Just my humble opinion.

As for 1800skyride.com and similar domains, they are a big scam
targeting all the aviation ride business and causes serious problems
to our ride operators. My club succedded in scaring them away from
offerring rides in our area, hopefully others will follow suit. Check
out the counter sitehttp://www.glidersailplanerides.com/and spread the word.

Ramy

On Mar 16, 11:28 am, "fred" wrote:



A question often asked is "Why has the glider activity declined?" In
1975 we would make about 150 flights on a Sat & Sun. Nothing like that
now but we had our best year 2006 in a long time. The decline (I
believe) is the competition for disposable time Vegas is many times
larger, Indian Casinos abound. Water craft, off road vehicles etc all
compete.
A well known ride operator told me that 1800gliderrides expected to
sell FOUR MILLION in rides in 2007. All sold on the internet. They
have no operations of their own, but have about 900 domain names, most
of them the same. USE CAUTION. fred- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A few years ago at Aboyne, I had an interesting chat with a hang
glider pilot who was starting gliding. He was quite competitive but
did not have the £11,000 or so to buy a top competition hang glider.
There are some old but still very good glass gliders around like the
Kestrel 19, for less than that, so he decided to switch and was going
to buy a share in one when he was qualified.
FWIW there is a Kestrel newsgroup on Yahoo http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kestrel401/

On of the really interesting things about gliding is that it is a very
good conversation piece. Mention you go gliding and the you often
hear..."I've always wanted a flight in a glider....."

I would like to put another perspective, with great respect to the excellent previos posts.
Flying is not so alluring these days.
I soloed 20 odd years back, at that time "flying" was only just really becoming a viable option of travelling about ones country or world, in jet aircraft. Prior to that, in the times of aviation heroes, flying (anything) was relegated to dreams and the wealthy.

Now it is cheap and easy, book over the web, $50 and your in the air! People perceive this as flight!

Now there are very few flying heroes, the days of a sea of humanity around a homecoming trans-atlantic pioneer, barnstormer or fighter pilot have well past.
Decades past between the records, when they break it is 3rd page news, as we have seen with Branson, Fossett and Ohlmann quite recently.

This discussion usually ends with

1 money
2 time
3 we do get people into the sport, we just dont retain them.

These are possibly true but I also beleive flight is not as "gee whiz" as it was when most of us took it up.

The upside is most people who do fly think that flight is limited to looking out from a pea-sized porthole, endless security and being served small drinks. The reality is far more exciting for the senses, as we know, and we need to grab that knowledge and show newcomers. Freedom can still be had in aviation!

When younger I was, I found the money and I found the time to do whatever I was hooked on and I imagine so will the youth of today, the trick is to get them hooked and to KEEP them hooked.
Danger is never a consideration to a 15 - 25 year old, sometimes even a drawcard.

I have rambled, its late!

bagger

bagmaker wrote:
These are possibly true but I also beleive flight is not as "gee whiz"
as it was when most of us took it up.

The upside is most people who do fly think that flight is limited to
looking out from a pea-sized porthole, endless security and being
served small drinks.

Are you sure you didn't mean the downside?

To me riding in a jetliner with the tiny porthole and the drinkies is
indistinguishable from traveling in a luxury coach or a train (though
these have bigger windows and fewer hostesses) and is about as exciting.

Possibly our biggest problem is to get a potential pilot into a glider
in the first place so they become aware of the difference between what
we do and the airline experience.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Mar 25, 6:22 am, wrote:
A few years ago at Aboyne, I had an interesting chat with a hang
glider pilot who was starting gliding. He was quite competitive but
did not have the £11,000 or so to buy a top competition hang glider.
There are some old but still very good glass gliders around like the
Kestrel 19, for less than that, so he decided to switch and was going
to buy a share in one when he was qualified.

Interesting case, as in the US there is no way one will save money by
moving from hang gliding to gliding (assuming maintaining the same
level of activity). Comparing a top of the line 11,000 hang glider
with a Kestrel is like comparing apple to oranges, the equivalent is
more like a $100,000 sailplane. The ratio is close to 10:1 in price,
so the equivalent to the Kestrel will be the typical $2000-$3000 hang
glider.
Bottom line, owning a sailplane cost about 10 times more than hang
glider, so does the cost of repairs and maintenance. One may be able
to keep the same cost by buying a small share or joining a club, but
will take a big hit on the level of activity and flexibility.

Ramy

Ramy wrote:
On Mar 25, 6:22 am, wrote:
A few years ago at Aboyne, I had an interesting chat with a hang
glider pilot who was starting gliding. He was quite competitive but
did not have the £11,000 or so to buy a top competition hang glider.
There are some old but still very good glass gliders around like the
Kestrel 19, for less than that, so he decided to switch and was going
to buy a share in one when he was qualified.

Interesting case, as in the US there is no way one will save money by
moving from hang gliding to gliding (assuming maintaining the same
level of activity). Comparing a top of the line 11,000 hang glider
with a Kestrel is like comparing apple to oranges, the equivalent is
more like a $100,000 sailplane. The ratio is close to 10:1 in price,
so the equivalent to the Kestrel will be the typical $2000-$3000 hang
glider.

The hang glider pilot may not see it that way at all, instead, he
discovers he can spend 11,000 (pounds, dollars, whatever) on a sailplane
and get FAR more performance than he could with even the finest hang
glider avialable. He can have a great cross-country flight covering much
more ground and it doesn't end in a retrieve like it always did in his
hang glider. Further, he is totally impressed that he can fly that
glider for several years and sell it for as much, likely more, than he
paid for it, while his $11,000 hang glider has lost value. And he has a
nice, easy drive to the airport instead of beating up his truck on
logging roads up some mountain to the launch site.

Oh, one more thing: the pilot's wife is so pleased that he now makes it
home in time for dinner!

Based on a conversation with a former hang glider pilot that was
spending less by soaring in a sailplane, flying more, and enjoying it
more. And it was only a Ka-6e that he was flying.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org