Cowardice in Battle

Give Art a little credit. He may be trying to tell y'all who haven't
been there what it's like.
If you haven't been there - haven't realized that in just a few more
seconds there will be no more you - I say you haven't a clue. Nor have
you experienced after what you saw coming didn't materialize what a
wonderful thing it is to be alive and how beautiful the earth is.
As for heroism - the person who is internally terrified and stoically
goes out and risks life again and again is far more heroic that the
one (like me) who knew that skill and experience would get him through
and only bad luck would kill him. And probability you can't argue
with, so why bother?
Walt BJ

"Walt BJ" wrote
Give Art a little credit. He may be trying to tell y'all who haven't
been there what it's like.
If you haven't been there - haven't realized that in just a few more
seconds there will be no more you - I say you haven't a clue. Nor have
you experienced after what you saw coming didn't materialize what a
wonderful thing it is to be alive and how beautiful the earth is.
As for heroism - the person who is internally terrified and stoically
goes out and risks life again and again is far more heroic that the
one (like me) who knew that skill and experience would get him through
and only bad luck would kill him. And probability you can't argue
with, so why bother?

We had a saying: "what happens TDY, stays TDY." What that means is
we don't need to hear about it. Everything that can possibly happen in
war, including accidents, murder, rape, and mayhem, are best left at the
port of arrival. i.e., we don't care.

"S. Sampson" wrote in message
...
"Walt BJ" wrote

We had a saying: "what happens TDY, stays TDY." What that means is
we don't need to hear about it. Everything that can possibly happen in
war, including accidents, murder, rape, and mayhem, are best left at the
port of arrival. i.e., we don't care.

Everybody has cute sayings. For example, there's one that goes more or less
that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, and those who are
intellectually uninquisitive are prime candidates to be exposed to history's
unhappy lessons over and over again. IOW, if you don't care, it's at your own
peril. You'll keep on getting your ass kicked until you learn not to bend over
when the kicker's around.

George Z.

Subject: Cowardice in Battle
From: "Gooneybird" am
Date: 7/3/03 9:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


"S. Sampson" wrote in message
t...
"Walt BJ" wrote

We had a saying: "what happens TDY, stays TDY." What that means is
we don't need to hear about it. Everything that can possibly happen in
war, including accidents, murder, rape, and mayhem, are best left at the
port of arrival. i.e., we don't care.

Everybody has cute sayings. For example, there's one that goes more or less
that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, and those who are
intellectually uninquisitive are prime candidates to be exposed to history's
unhappy lessons over and over again. IOW, if you don't care, it's at your
own
peril. You'll keep on getting your ass kicked until you learn not to bend
over
when the kicker's around.

George Z.

Memories force you to care. There isn't a single day day in 60 years that I
haven't thought about the war. Maybe for just an instant, a flash of memory
that keeps repeating. But the memories are always there And will never go away.
Those who have no memories weren't there.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Give Art a little credit. He may be trying to tell y'all who haven't
been there what it's like.
If you haven't been there - haven't realized that in just a few more
seconds there will be no more you - I say you haven't a clue. Nor have
you experienced after what you saw coming didn't materialize what a
wonderful thing it is to be alive and how beautiful the earth is.
As for heroism - the person who is internally terrified and stoically
goes out and risks life again and again is far more heroic that the
one (like me) who knew that skill and experience would get him through
and only bad luck would kill him. And probability you can't argue
with, so why bother?
Walt BJ

Agreed, I was terrified in my first action and I was just as terrified in my
last. It just never occurred to me to say no. I'm not a hero by any stretch of
the imagination, but I met a few both when I was Army and when I was Air Force
who were heroes by any definition.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

On 03 Jul 2003 16:29:02 GMT, nt (Gordon) wrote:

I wouldn't put "Lt. Jones" in the coward category - given enough opportunities
facing mortal danger, men develop cracks. Day 1 of SERE training, the
instructors explain "John Wayne is dead", i.e., there is no such thing as an
unbreakable soul. I am glad that the experiences you had did not break you,
but given the ferocity of the conflict, it should be a point of compassion to
understand that other men may have had lower breaking points - it doesn't
relegate all such men to the ranks of the craven cowards. There are levels of
course. LMF (coward) for those pilots and crews that intentionally bombed the
Channel or took some other easy way out; the "twitch" for those men
progressively losing their SA and flying skills while endangering the other
airmen in their units by making poor choices as a result of too many missions
in combat. Is that better than raising your hand to say "I got the shakes real
bad today, Doc", and missing a single mission?

Art, I had a similar situation - not combat, but one where I was flying in a
very unsafe environment, to the point we had fatal accidents within our
aircraft type with sickening regularity. After one particularly nasty crash
killed some of our more popular squadronmates, a ******* that was overseas
decided to "un-volunteer" for night flying - he was immediately grounded and
never flew again. We ostrasized him completely and his actions directly
screwed me up, personally, for the following year. I -hated- that guy. Deep
in what's left of my soul, still do. I mean, how can you just QUIT when folks
are expecting you to perform?

Several years later, I was out of the military and scouting for a new career,
which included ride-alongs with ambulances and paramedic/firefighters. I
thought it was a perfect fit, until two of our first three calls included dead
kids. I don't think of myself as a coward, but I knew at that moment that I
wasn't psychologically strong enough to continue. I guess some of the guys on
that rig would have reason to think of me as a coward, whether right or wrong.

Not at all. As an EMT, I recognize (as do almost all others in the
field) that emergency medicine is a very emotion-filled field. Some
people simply cannot stand the strain, while others (my self included)
compensate in various "self destructive" manners. Being a volunteer,
there have been many times that we have been paged out to what sounds
like an especially nasty call, and as I headed for the rescue truck my
thoughts have been along the lines of "why not stay home, why face
this? I think that the thing that keeps me going is the fact that we
have more successes than failures. Getting calls like you did is not
terribly uncommon, but on a first ride they would be quite unusual.
Just a case of bad timing. If you had seed the successful
resuscitation of a child, or a successful vehicle extrication you
might have stayed in the field.

As one who has been there and done that, I would never question your
courage.


I have to accept that the man I continue to hate for quitting was at the same
place I reached, looking down at a kid's scattered remains. Tolerating the
weaknesses of those around you is a human quality every bit as important as
bravery - most people do not spend 75+ years demonstrating continuous acts of
bravery, but all of us have to deal with the limitations of those around us,
every day.

All of that said, Lt. Jones probably did benefit from your boot in his ass that
day. I'd hate to think that friends couldn't support each other like that in
moments of weakness, without permanently earning the title of coward.

v/r
Gordon

We have what are called "critical incident stress debriefing teams"
now, and in all probability one would have counseled your crew after
the incident with the child. They can, and do, help greatly.

Al Minyard

Subject: Cowardice in Battle
From: Alan Minyard
Date: 7/4/03 7:15 AM Pacific

Not at all. As an EMT, I recognize (as do almost all others in the
field) that emergency medicine is a very emotion-filled field. Some
people simply cannot stand the strain, while others (my self included)
compensate in various "self destructive" manners. Being a volunteer,

As an EMT this incident might interest you.

DEATH ONTHE RUNWAY

During the winter of 1944-45 the Germans attacked through the Ardennes towards
the Meuse in the Dinant Namur area in what became known as the Battle of the
Bulge. It started on December 16th with the weather socked in with heavy ground
fog and fast moving low scud under ten tenths cover. The 344th had stood down
waiting for the skies to clear until German forces could be attacked. During
this period, our weather officer, Paul Forant (Boston) gave us very little hope
for the immediate future, but he did say that the skies would be clear for a
mission on January 1st, 1945. On that morning we were taxiing out for takeoff
when suddenly there was a huge explosion and fireball coming from the runway.
Bob Chalot's plane had lost an engine on takeoff. The plane rotated violently
toward the dead engine, hooked a wingtip and crashed back into the runway. Fuel
tanks ruptured and caught fire. A huge fireball was over the crash site and the
the crew was trapped inside the burning plane. Our fire/rescue crew rushed in
to to save the men in the burning plane. As they were working, the entire 4,000
pound bomb load exploded killing both the aircrew and the rescue crew
instantly. 10 men burned to death while their friends watched on helplessly. I
feel the need to name the men, lest we forget.
Pilot: Bob Chalot
Co-pilot: Elliot Falk
Bombardier: (name lost)
Gunners: Dunaway,Morse and Fowler

LEST WE FORGET


Rescue Crew (2058 engineers aviation)
Alton Parker
Elmer Juilly
Bill Reiker
Len Luezkowski

Lest we forget.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote:


Memories force you to care. There isn't a single day day in 60 years that I
haven't thought about the war. Maybe for just an instant, a flash of memory
that keeps repeating. But the memories are always there And will never go away.
Those who have no memories weren't there.


Arthur Kramer

Art, this is a good example of what we've been trying to tell
you. What earthly good is that last sentence of yours there?...It
serves only to irritate...

To place yourself somehow 'above' us unwashed peasants.

Much better to have left it out, much better. Can't you see
that?.
--

-Gord.

Subject: Cowardice in Battle
From: "Gord Beaman" )
Date: 7/4/03 9:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time

Memories force you to care. There isn't a single day day in 60 years that I
haven't thought about the war. Maybe for just an instant, a flash of memory
that keeps repeating. But the memories are always there And will never go
away.
Those who have no memories weren't there.


Arthur Kramer

Art, this is a good example of what we've been trying to tell
you. What earthly good is that last sentence of yours there?...It
serves only to irritate...

To place yourself somehow 'above' us unwashed peasants.

Much better to have left it out, much better. Can't you see
that?.
--

-Gord.


My point was the persistance of memory, nothing else. I am not responsible for
the sensitivity of thoise who were not there. And I refuse to write my thoughts
based on political correctness. If there are those who are senssitive about not
having served, that in no way concerns me.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Cowardice in Battle
From: "Gord Beaman" )
Date: 7/4/03 9:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time

Memories force you to care. There isn't a single day day in 60 years that I
haven't thought about the war. Maybe for just an instant, a flash of memory
that keeps repeating. But the memories are always there And will never go
away.
Those who have no memories weren't there.


Arthur Kramer

Art, this is a good example of what we've been trying to tell
you. What earthly good is that last sentence of yours there?...It
serves only to irritate...

To place yourself somehow 'above' us unwashed peasants.

Much better to have left it out, much better. Can't you see
that?.
--

-Gord.


My point was the persistance of memory, nothing else.

Not a chance...you were pointing out that 'others' weren't there
(to their detriment), as if they were at fault somehow, you're
reasonably good with words, you have to see that's how it comes
across. And you knew that when you typed it too, I haven't the
slightest doubt.

I am not responsible for
the sensitivity of thoise who were not there. And I refuse to write my thoughts
based on political correctness. If there are those who are senssitive about not
having served, that in no way concerns me.

Arthur Kramer

You see?, two references to people not 'being there'. Hell's
bells, was the 344 th the only war fighting unit in the war?
--

-Gord.