What it took to get wings in WW II.

dd upSubject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: (Walt BJ)
Date: 7/13/03 6:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

BTW, Art, I graduated from Aviation Cadet Class 54H at Webb AFB (Big
Spring). FWIW the wash-out rate of 54H at BGS was 47%.
Walt BJ


But when we add up the wash-out rates from day one physicals and tests then
add basic training, CTD, Classification then flying schools, the total has to
be well over 95%. Many are called few are chosen. Do you know why they called
it BIg Spring? Because there was no water. It was down the road from Swee****er
where the water was all alkali.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

But when we add up the wash-out rates from day one physicals and tests then
add basic training, CTD, Classification then flying schools, the total has to
be well over 95%.

I think that estimate is much too high. I don't know how many pilots
there were in the Air Corps during WW II (are you also including
bombardiers and navigators?), but if they were only two or three
percent of the number who started, then the starting number would have
to have been larger than the entire U.S. male population!

Roughly speaking.

vince norris

Subject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: vincent p. norris
Date: 7/14/03 7:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

But when we add up the wash-out rates from day one physicals and tests
then
add basic training, CTD, Classification then flying schools, the total has
to
be well over 95%.

I think that estimate is much too high. I don't know how many pilots
there were in the Air Corps during WW II (are you also including
bombardiers and navigators?), but if they were only two or three
percent of the number who started, then the starting number would have
to have been larger than the entire U.S. male population!

Roughly speaking.

vince norris



How can you know that when you don't know the final number?

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
dd upSubject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: (Walt BJ)
Date: 7/13/03 6:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

BTW, Art, I graduated from Aviation Cadet Class 54H at Webb AFB (Big
Spring). FWIW the wash-out rate of 54H at BGS was 47%.
Walt BJ


But when we add up the wash-out rates from day one physicals and tests
then
add basic training, CTD, Classification then flying schools, the total has
to
be well over 95%. Many are called few are chosen.

I am inclined to believe that the USAAF of the day, which already was an
elite organization due to its unique activities, elected to set the
standards for piloting so very high in an effort to assure that it would
have on hand sufficient numbers of healthy and bright men to assign, after
"washing out" or otherwise not being selected for pilot duties (Needs of the
Service) to other flight duties which were also VERY important. (Art Kramer,
am I mistaken, or wasn't the "typical" bombardier a well-qualified
specimen, from the standpoints of physical readiness and quick wits? And the
navigators, as well?)

Many were called, indeed. But I have a hunch that quite a large proportion
of the men who were not assigned to pilot duties could probably HAVE been so
assigned, and maybe would have been, except for the Needs of the Service.
And unless competent guys were selected for training in the OTHER important
crew duties, the USAAF would hardly have been so successful in the
aggregate. It managed to find first-rate men for all crew duties, including
especially those of bombardier and navigator.

Becoming a competent bombardier was no easy task. Air navigation, especially
where weather, winds, undercasts, overcasts, etc were concerned was no walk
in the park, either.

Am I completely off-base? Request your commentary.

Subject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: "Lawrence Dillard"
Date: 7/14/03 9:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
dd upSubject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: (Walt BJ)
Date: 7/13/03 6:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

BTW, Art, I graduated from Aviation Cadet Class 54H at Webb AFB (Big
Spring). FWIW the wash-out rate of 54H at BGS was 47%.
Walt BJ


But when we add up the wash-out rates from day one physicals and tests
then
add basic training, CTD, Classification then flying schools, the total has
to
be well over 95%. Many are called few are chosen.

I am inclined to believe that the USAAF of the day, which already was an
elite organization due to its unique activities, elected to set the
standards for piloting so very high in an effort to assure that it would
have on hand sufficient numbers of healthy and bright men to assign, after
"washing out" or otherwise not being selected for pilot duties (Needs of the
Service) to other flight duties which were also VERY important. (Art Kramer,
am I mistaken, or wasn't the "typical" bombardier a well-qualified
specimen, from the standpoints of physical readiness and quick wits? And the
navigators, as well?)

Many were called, indeed. But I have a hunch that quite a large proportion
of the men who were not assigned to pilot duties could probably HAVE been so
assigned, and maybe would have been, except for the Needs of the Service.
And unless competent guys were selected for training in the OTHER important
crew duties, the USAAF would hardly have been so successful in the
aggregate. It managed to find first-rate men for all crew duties, including
especially those of bombardier and navigator.

Becoming a competent bombardier was no easy task. Air navigation, especially
where weather, winds, undercasts, overcasts, etc were concerned was no walk
in the park, either.

Am I completely off-base? Request your commentary.



No you are not off base. But I never went through pilot training. I was
classified as a Bombardier right out of San Antonio since my tests indicated
that was what I was best suited for. And I think they were right, I really
enjoyed the Norden and navigating and did quite well at it. I graduated second
in my class at Big Spring and was assigned to Marauders as were all those guys
at the top of the class. This is to dispel any idea that bombardiers and
navigators were all washed out pilots, Very few were. The highest math skills
were needed by the Navigators. I know many pilots who were totally befuddled
by what it took to navigate celestially. Each specialty had its special demands
and we were chosen to fill those jobs based on our skills. But I am sure that
you are right and many who washed out were moved into jobs where there talents
could best be used.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: Andrew Chaplin
Date: 7/13/03 7:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

ArtKramr wrote:

I would be interested to know the course of academic study in the RAF.
What
math and physics? How high the washout rate (,more or less)before even
getting
to flying school? How high the washout rate for physical reasons? Any
idea?.

With the implementation of the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan,
the RAF shifted a significant portion of their aircrew training effort
out of the British Isles, so most training other than conversion and
OTU was conducted away from the ADGB battle area. You might have a
look in Spencer Dunmore's history of the BCATP, _Wings for Victory_,
and Larry Milberry's and Hugh Halliday's _The Royal Canadian Air Force
at War, 1939-1945_. IIRC, Bill McAndrew is working on a monograph on
training, ops and LMF problems in the Commonwealth air forces
operating against Germany; it or papers based on his research may
already be published. I think a fair idea of how the training was done
is covered in Murray Peden's _A Thousand Shall Fall_, but he was a
pilot rather than a bomb aimer.

(The Canadian PM of the day knew that the manpower costs of the BCATP
would initially obviate an RCAF air expeditionary force and so
minimize Canadian exposure to combat casualties; he was, however,
gambling on a much shorter war than what he got.)
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO


Thanks Andrew. I'll check those books out.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Art, come on, do you have to?


Qman

Subject: What it took to get wings in WW II.
From: vincent p. norris
Date: 7/15/03 7:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

I think that estimate is much too high. I don't know how many pilots
there were in the Air Corps during WW II (are you also including
bombardiers and navigators?), but if they were only two or three
percent of the number who started, then the starting number would have
to have been larger than the entire U.S. male population!

Roughly speaking.

vince norris

How can you know that when you don't know the final number?

Arthur Kramer

I don't "know" it, Art, which I admitted, and which is why I added
"roughly speaking."

If you know it, let the rest of us know and we'll do the math, just
for curiosity's sake.

vince norris


I have no idea which is why I don't try to speculate and guesstimate. Roughly
speaking that is.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

From: vincent p. norris

I don't know how many pilots
there were in the Air Corps during WW II

I found one stray figure that might be useful: in 1944 the AAFTC trained
80,693 pilots. I believe that was the peak year. As an item of interest, in
1946, it trained 344 pilots.


Chris Mark

"Chris Mark" wrote

From: vincent p. norris

I don't know how many pilots
there were in the Air Corps during WW II

I found one stray figure that might be useful: in 1944 the AAFTC trained
80,693 pilots. I believe that was the peak year. As an item of interest,
in
1946, it trained 344 pilots.

Training figures during the WWII era (1939-1945) for the Air Force:

Pilots
-------------------------------
233,198 Primary with 88,279 (~28%) failures*
193,440 Advanced with (~13%) 28,790 (~13%) failures
108,337 Transition with 7,474 (~7%) failures.

Assuming everyone went Primary, Advanced, Transition (I'd *guess*
that's true but someone who knows is welcome to correct the
assumption), that's a total failure rate of about 39%.

Bombardiers
----------------------------------
28,361 total with 3,423 (~11%) failures**

Navigation
-----------------------------------
56,119 total with 10,822 (~16%) failures***

Bombardier/Navigation
------------------------------------
28,480 total with 3,533 (~11%) failures****

Gunners
------------------------------------
309,236 total with 26,815 (~8%) failures*****

*all failures includes training deaths
** includes Precision, Instructor, and Refresher courses
*** includes Celestial, Dead Reckoning, Instructor, and Refresher
**** includes Bombardier/Navigation, Bombardier DR & D8 Navigation
***** includes enlisted, officers, and instructors