Ratings for an Amphibian

On 2007-06-15 10:57:02 -0700, pittss1c said:

I was wondering, does one require a seaplane rating to operate and
amphibian for land?

"Seaplane" is not defined precisely in the regulations. The regulations
only establish airworthiness standards for operations on water. Part
23, for example, says that seaplanes and amphibians must demonstrate
safe operation at a maximum wave height (kind of like maximum
demonstrated crosswind component). The FAA definitely considers an
amphibian to be a seaplane, however. Consider this bit from the Part 61
FAQs:

"QUESTION: A flight instructor in our district wants to know if he
needs an airplane/single-engine sea rating in order to give instrument
instruction in a Lake Buccaneer amphibian. There is some debate here in
our office. I cite ¤61.195(c) as making it a requirement for the
instructor to hold an airplane/single-engine sea. Can you shed some
light on this for us?
ANSWER: Reference ¤61.195(c). YES; As it states in ¤61.195(c), Ò . .
hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate
and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and CLASS OF
AIRCRAFT in which instrument training is being provided." YES, a flight
instructor would have to hold an airplane single-engine sea rating on
his or her pilot certificate.
Some of you may have seen some of the past policy interpretations on
this kind of question, but ¤61.195(c) got changed on August 4, 1997 so
those policy interpretations are no longer valid. The new ¤61.195(c)
applies. As per ¤61.195(c), a person would have to hold an airplane
single-engine sea rating on his or her pilot certificate.
{Q&A-119}
QUESTION: Regarding FAR 61.195(c). The confusion arises about the
"instrument rating that is appropriate to the category and class of
aircraft". What is the intent or meaning here, instrument is not class
specific. Seems like it would be enough to say "...must hold an
instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot
certificate that is appropriate to the category of aircraft in which
instrument training is being provided."
Perhaps an example would help illustrate the issue. Could an instrument
rated instructor (CFII) give instrument instruction in a multiengine
airplane if the instructor did not have a multiengine instructor rating
or a multiengine
rating on their commercial pilot certificate? The traditional answer to
this question has been yes...but, make sure you don't get into the
realm of multiengine instruction by pulling an engine or doing
something else that would require multiengine skills. Has this changed
with FAR 61.195(c)? ANSWER: Reference ¤61.195(c), it states: (c)
Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight
training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not
limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight
instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the
category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being
provided.
In reference to your specific question, the answer is NO. A person that
does not hold an airplane multiengine rating on his pilot and flight
instructor certificate shall not give instrument training in a
multiengine airplane.
{Q&A-111} "

Now is it clear as mud? The question does not address anything except
whether a flight instructor with no seaplane rating may give
instruction in an amphibian. The followup answer using multiengine as
an example seems contradictory.

However, I think from reading this is that the FAA considers amphibians
to be both sea and land planes and that anyone acting as PIC in them
needs the appropriate category and class ratings. IOW, you have to have
both ASEL and ASES ratings when flying as PIC of a Lake Buccaneer. When
flying an amphibian, I log both land and sea plane time (for whatever
it is worth).
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

J. Severyn wrote:




Seaplane:
Combination of 61.63(c) Additional class rating......
and Definitions and Abbreviations: FAR 1.1 Class(1) ".....examples include:
single engine; multiengine; land; water; gyroplane; helicopter; airship; and
free balloon....."

Instrument Rating: FAR 61.3(e)

J. Severyn



Well, 61.63 just tells me what I have to do to apply for a sea rating,
not why I need to have one. As for the 1.1 definition of "Class", if
anything, a person might interpret that to mean you *do* have to have a
sea rating to operate a seaplane, regardless of where you take off and land.

Nathan Young's post of the part 61 FAQ is very interesting, as well.
Whoever authored the FAQ answer interpreted 61.31(d)(1) very
imaginatively, as the reg says *nothing* about where you are landing,
and only seems to address aircraft that require both a class *and* type
rating!

Interesting stuff, this!

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

On 2007-06-15 12:45:20 -0700, Scott Skylane said:

pittss1c wrote:
I was wondering, does one require a seaplane rating to operate and
amphibian for land?


I believe you do not, but a search of the regs to prove that has so far
proven fruitless for me.

Can anyone cite the reg that *requires* you to posses a sea rating to
operate on water? In the same vein, which reg *requires* you to posses
an instrument rating to operate in IMC?

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

¤Ê61.3ÊÊÊRequirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.
(a) Pilot certificate. A person may not act as pilot in command or in
any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember of a civil
aircraft of U.S. registry, unless that personÑ
(1) Has a valid pilot certificate or special purpose pilot
authorization issued under this part in that person's physical
possession or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the
privileges of that pilot certificate or authorization.
end quote of reg What this means is that you have to have the
certificate in your possession when exercising the privileges of that
certificate. Certificates grant privileges, so if you have ASEL you are
allowed the privilege of being PIC of an ASEL. You cannot be PIC of an
ASES because your certificate does not give you that privilege.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On 2007-06-15 13:35:12 -0700, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net said:

Nathan Young wrote:

***********************
FAA has a FAQ on Part 61 which addresses this, specifically it states:

http://afs600.faa.gov/AFS640.htm
Click on the link for: FAQ 14 CFR, Part 61 & 141

******************************

I looked all over for that FAQ because I knew the answer was in there and I
couldn't find it. And even with the link above I can't find it because it
gives a Page Not Found error.

The FAQ is no longer available. The quote is from page 29. I can email
you a PDF copy if you like.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

"Scott Skylane" wrote in message
...

Hmmm, I still don't get where that says I have to posses a sea rating to
operate on the water.


"Has a valid pilot certificate or special purpose pilot authorization issued
under this part in that person's physical possession or readily accessible
in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that pilot certificate or
authorization."

On 2007-06-15 13:56:13 -0700, C J Campbell
said:

On 2007-06-15 10:57:02 -0700, pittss1c said:

I was wondering, does one require a seaplane rating to operate and
amphibian for land?

"Seaplane" is not defined precisely in the regulations. The regulations
only establish airworthiness standards for operations on water. Part
23, for example, says that seaplanes and amphibians must demonstrate
safe operation at a maximum wave height (kind of like maximum
demonstrated crosswind component). The FAA definitely considers an
amphibian to be a seaplane, however. Consider this bit from the Part 61
FAQs:

"QUESTION: A flight instructor in our district wants to know if he
needs an airplane/single-engine sea rating in order to give instrument
instruction in a Lake Buccaneer amphibian. There is some debate here in
our office. I cite ¤61.195(c) as making it a requirement for the
instructor to hold an airplane/single-engine sea. Can you shed some
light on this for us?
ANSWER: Reference ¤61.195(c). YES; As it states in ¤61.195(c), Ò . .
hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate
and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and CLASS OF
AIRCRAFT in which instrument training is being provided." YES, a flight
instructor would have to hold an airplane single-engine sea rating on
his or her pilot certificate.
Some of you may have seen some of the past policy interpretations on
this kind of question, but ¤61.195(c) got changed on August 4, 1997 so
those policy interpretations are no longer valid. The new ¤61.195(c)
applies. As per ¤61.195(c), a person would have to hold an airplane
single-engine sea rating on his or her pilot certificate.
{Q&A-119}
QUESTION: Regarding FAR 61.195(c). The confusion arises about the
"instrument rating that is appropriate to the category and class of
aircraft". What is the intent or meaning here, instrument is not class
specific. Seems like it would be enough to say "...must hold an
instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot
certificate that is appropriate to the category of aircraft in which
instrument training is being provided."
Perhaps an example would help illustrate the issue. Could an instrument
rated instructor (CFII) give instrument instruction in a multiengine
airplane if the instructor did not have a multiengine instructor rating
or a multiengine
rating on their commercial pilot certificate? The traditional answer to
this question has been yes...but, make sure you don't get into the
realm of multiengine instruction by pulling an engine or doing
something else that would require multiengine skills. Has this changed
with FAR 61.195(c)? ANSWER: Reference ¤61.195(c), it states: (c)
Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight
training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not
limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight
instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the
category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being
provided.
In reference to your specific question, the answer is NO. A person that
does not hold an airplane multiengine rating on his pilot and flight
instructor certificate shall not give instrument training in a
multiengine airplane.
{Q&A-111} "

Now is it clear as mud? The question does not address anything except
whether a flight instructor with no seaplane rating may give
instruction in an amphibian. The followup answer using multiengine as
an example seems contradictory.

However, I think from reading this is that the FAA considers amphibians
to be both sea and land planes and that anyone acting as PIC in them
needs the appropriate category and class ratings. IOW, you have to have
both ASEL and ASES ratings when flying as PIC of a Lake Buccaneer. When
flying an amphibian, I log both land and sea plane time (for whatever
it is worth).

I like Nathan Young's answer better than mine. He quoted from page 29
of the FAQ:

QUESTION: What are the ratings needed to fly an amphibious airplane
(Lake, Grumman Goose, etc.)? Does the PIC need both land and sea
ratings, or can the pilot operate with only one of the ratings if
operations are only to/from the surface on which the pilot is rated?
I'd appreciate an "official" view. And we're not looking at ME vs. SE
-- let's assume we're talking about a Lake Buccaneer and a pilot with
only PVT-ASEL flying off land, or only PVT-ASES flying off water.
ANSWER: Reference ¤61.31(d)(1). Only the appropriate rating (land/sea)
is required. To operate an amphibious airplane for water operations
using the float landing gear, one must hold the Airplane Single-engine
Sea or Airplane Multiengine Sea rating, as appropriate. To operate an
amphibious airplane for land operations using the wheeled landing gear,
one must hold the Airplane Single-engine Land or Airplane Multiengine
Land rating, as appropriate.
{Q&A-317}

So what John Lynch said is that you cannot give instrument instruction
in an amphibian unless you have a seaplane rating, then he turns right
around and says the seaplane rating is not necessary to act as PIC!
HAHAHA. Who says the FARs are not fun?
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

C J Campbell wrote:

snip/
end quote of reg What this means is that you have to have the
certificate in your possession when exercising the privileges of that
certificate. Certificates grant privileges, so if you have ASEL you are
allowed the privilege of being PIC of an ASEL. You cannot be PIC of an
ASES because your certificate does not give you that privilege.

Ok, now that is starting to sink in to this thick skull ; I guess what
I really want to see, then, is where are the priveleges of any
particular kind of certificate spelled out? I.E., where do I find the
words "those in possession of a sea rating May: and May Not:"?

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

Scott Skylane wrote:


Hmmm, I still don't get where that says I have to posses a sea rating to
operate on the water.

Where it talks about category and class ratings being required.
Seaplane is a class of the category airplane.

This is like the first week of ground school.

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2007-06-15 13:35:12 -0700, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net said:

Nathan Young wrote:

***********************
FAA has a FAQ on Part 61 which addresses this, specifically it
states: http://afs600.faa.gov/AFS640.htm
Click on the link for: FAQ 14 CFR, Part 61 & 141

******************************

I looked all over for that FAQ because I knew the answer was in
there and I couldn't find it. And even with the link above I can't
find it because it gives a Page Not Found error.

The FAQ is no longer available. The quote is from page 29. I can email
you a PDF copy if you like.

Yes please do. I would like to have a copy.

wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net

Just change the CAPS to . & @

In article ,
pittss1c wrote:

I was wondering, does one require a seaplane rating to operate and
amphibian for land?

I have a PPC with ASEL/IR ratings, tailwheel, high performance and
complex endorsements.
I have 20 hours in an Osprey II amphibean, all land takeoffs and
landing. I flew it to and from Oshkosh in 1989 for the owner/builder.
No big deal except that I am 6'2" and had to slouch down in the seat to
keep my headset from contacting the canopy. Landing with your butt less
than 12" off the ground is interesting.