Less Gloom

In article om,
Jay Honeck wrote:
Wow -- just when I thought that *I* was the most cynical, hard-headed
******* out there, you guys go and prove me wrong. Thanks!

:-)

Seriously, I think you're being too hard on them. Piper has been
forced to respond to what we heard Bass say in that speech last
weekend. They are publicly denying that there are any plans to cut
off support for older planes -- which, unless they are REALLY being
diabolical, can only be good news for those of us who are flying
around in "antique" planes. (What *is* the defininition of "antique"
now, anyway? My plane is now 33 years old -- where's the cut-off?)


I'm not being cynical, I'm just trying to be a realist. Though I'm not
intimately familiar with the aircraft industry, I doubt that Piper can
sustain themselves as a new airplane manufacturer on a piston-engine
parts business. They were late to the game with modern avionics in
their airplanes, all of which are 30+ year old designs. They could
innovate in the piston market and compete with Cirrus and Cessna, but is
there really that much room? My guess is that Piper is staking the
future of the company on moving away from pistons (and ditching the high
liability, low return associated with them) to focus on the young VLJ
market. Honestly, I can't say that I wouldn't consider the same if I
were running the company.



JKG

I'm not being cynical, I'm just trying to be a realist. Though I'm not
intimately familiar with the aircraft industry, I doubt that Piper can
sustain themselves as a new airplane manufacturer on a piston-engine
parts business. They were late to the game with modern avionics in
their airplanes, all of which are 30+ year old designs. They could
innovate in the piston market and compete with Cirrus and Cessna, but is
there really that much room? My guess is that Piper is staking the
future of the company on moving away from pistons (and ditching the high
liability, low return associated with them) to focus on the young VLJ
market. Honestly, I can't say that I wouldn't consider the same if I
were running the company.

I agree 100% with you. In fact, I fully understand why Bass and
Piper would want to cut ties with the piston market, and only pursue
jets. Hell, it's Economics 101, if their only goal is to make more
money.

But then, don't come to a fly-in for CHEROKEE OWNERS, for
chrissakes. Just say you're "unavailable", and leave it at that.
The guy is an idiot for giving that speech in that venue.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In article . com,
Jay Honeck wrote:
But then, don't come to a fly-in for CHEROKEE OWNERS, for
chrissakes. Just say you're "unavailable", and leave it at that.
The guy is an idiot for giving that speech in that venue.

Hey, if he doesn't show up, he's blowing you off. If he shows up and
doesn't reveal anything "exciting," then you're ripping him to shreds.
So he shows up and tells you what's going on at Piper, and you're still
not happy? Geez, you guys are like a bunch of women! Can't please you!

From what you've described, I agree that it sounds like his message was
not well-matched to his audience, but then again, I'm not sure that he
really had any other good news. You guys probably wanted to hear about
PIper's plans for a "Cirrus killer," which is obviously something that's
not in the cards.

In the end, I'm not too worried about the parts issue, even if PIper
were to stop selling parts tomorrow. Where there's a will (and money to
be made), there's a way. I honestly don't think Piper has much to gain
by trying to ground the existing piston fleet, nor do I think that they
would be successful in doing so.


JKG

Hey, if he doesn't show up, he's blowing you off. If he shows up and
doesn't reveal anything "exciting," then you're ripping him to shreds.
So he shows up and tells you what's going on at Piper, and you're still
not happy? Geez, you guys are like a bunch of women! Can't please you!

Let me try that again. Bass shouldn't have "not shown up" -- he simply
should never have made himself available for speechifying to a bunch
of piston-single owners in the first place. The CPA would have been
better off with a Rod Machado-type entertainer doing the talking --
and so would Piper.

But who knew?

From what you've described, I agree that it sounds like his message was
not well-matched to his audience, but then again, I'm not sure that he
really had any other good news. You guys probably wanted to hear about
PIper's plans for a "Cirrus killer," which is obviously something that's
not in the cards.

Piper's "solutions" in the piston market have been so bloody obvious
to long-term Piper owners that we ALL wonder what their problem is.
They needed to do two things ten years ago:

- Add a pilot's-side door to the Cherokee line.
- Build an O-540-powered Arrow

They have done neither, and have thus been getting their asses waxed
by Cirrus and Cessna. It's been like watching Chevy try to turn the
Impala into a Camry-killer. Painful to watch.

Additionally, they could have made simple changes (like flush-rivets
and wing filets) to the airframe that would have at least given the
appearance of keeping up. Again, they have done precisely nothing,
beyond adding glass panels and upgrading interiors.

In the end, I'm not too worried about the parts issue, even if PIper
were to stop selling parts tomorrow. Where there's a will (and money to
be made), there's a way. I honestly don't think Piper has much to gain
by trying to ground the existing piston fleet, nor do I think that they
would be successful in doing so.

All one has to do is look at the plethora of plastic part
manufacturers to see what would happen if Piper stopped making parts
for old planes. There will always be small companies willing to jump
into the breach.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 07:48:22 -0700, Jay Honeck wrote:

They
are publicly denying that there are any plans to cut off support for older
planes

I missed that. All I saw was a claim that there was no set date. That
would be consistent with "until our inventory is gone".

- Andrew

"Matt Barrow" wrote in news:e5aei.148673
:

"Tom Guess" wrote in message
...
Jay Honeck wrote in news:1182317519.821816.6690
@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

Ah, spin control. Some day I want to have a "Chief Corporate
Spokesperson" in my company who will clarify and sanitize all the
stupid things *I* say... :-)

There aren't enough hours in the day or enough skilled communicators in
the
trade to handle that assignment.

Better put a " :~) " after that.

No.

Ah, spin control. Some day I want to have a "Chief Corporate
Spokesperson" in my company who will clarify and sanitize all the
stupid things *I* say... :-)

There aren't enough hours in the day or enough skilled communicators in
the
trade to handle that assignment.

Better put a " :~) " after that.

No.

Hey -- you'll get no where with me imitating my wife!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Andrew Gideon wrote:
They
are publicly denying that there are any plans to cut off support for older
planes

I missed that. All I saw was a claim that there was no set date. That
would be consistent with "until our inventory is gone".


You can read into it what you want, but IMHO, until Piper actually starts
making money selling jets, they need to keep making parts. They're not
really making much selling a new piston airplane here and there. Parts for
the existing fleet are currently a large part of their overall revenue.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200706/1

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
Jay Honeck wrote:
But then, don't come to a fly-in for CHEROKEE OWNERS, for
chrissakes. Just say you're "unavailable", and leave it at that.
The guy is an idiot for giving that speech in that venue.

Hey, if he doesn't show up, he's blowing you off. If he shows up and
doesn't reveal anything "exciting," then you're ripping him to shreds.
So he shows up and tells you what's going on at Piper, and you're still
not happy? Geez, you guys are like a bunch of women! Can't please you!

From what you've described, I agree that it sounds like his message was
not well-matched to his audience, but then again, I'm not sure that he
really had any other good news. You guys probably wanted to hear about
PIper's plans for a "Cirrus killer," which is obviously something that's
not in the cards.

In the end, I'm not too worried about the parts issue, even if PIper
were to stop selling parts tomorrow. Where there's a will (and money to
be made), there's a way. I honestly don't think Piper has much to gain
by trying to ground the existing piston fleet, nor do I think that they
would be successful in doing so.


It's not that Piper shouldn't have sent anyone, but they should have sent
the right person; you have to know your audience. It's like most of the
successful automobile dealerships around Seattle have a dedicated saleperson
to deal with Boeing engineers (and other technical people). Most technical
people are so turned-off by the normal car salesperson (and I suppose, visa
versa) that they lose sales otherwise. I expect that Piper has a logisitics
support manager that would have been a much better fit.

Jay Honeck wrote:
Piper's "solutions" in the piston market have been so bloody obvious
to long-term Piper owners that we ALL wonder what their problem is.
They needed to do two things ten years ago:

- Add a pilot's-side door to the Cherokee line.

Since the current design is integral to the structural integrity of the
cockpit, adding a door would not be a trivial change. In fact, it
might not be possible at all, and retain the current type certificate.
Personally, I've never found myself wanting a door on that side.

- Build an O-540-powered Arrow

They have done neither, and have thus been getting their asses waxed
by Cirrus and Cessna.

Ah, but note that Cirrus uses a fixed gear design. Maybe there just
wasn't enough of a demand for a big engined Arrow.


Additionally, they could have made simple changes (like flush-rivets
and wing filets) to the airframe that would have at least given the
appearance of keeping up. Again, they have done precisely nothing,
beyond adding glass panels and upgrading interiors.

Again, I don't think switching to flush-rivets would be a "simple
change". There's definitely a difference in strength. Note that even
companies like Laminar Flow utilize fairings and... basically... Bondo
for their wing smoothing. If it was trivial to switch to flush rivets,
I suspect some enterprising company would already hold the STC for it.

Unfortunately, there are FAA imposed limitations to what you can change
and still comply with the existing type certificate. Or else you're
opening yourself up to certifying an entirely new airframe, and all the
associated engineering costs.

I agree that many little complanies will probably pop up to support our
Cherokees if Piper does stop producing parts.

--- Jay


--

Jay Masino "Home is where My critters are"
http://www.JayMasino.com
http://www.OceanCityAirport.com
http://www.oc-Adolfos.com