B29 - "Necessary Evil"

"Gernot Hassenpflug" wrote in message
Well no, as pointed out by other posters. But my question is, was
| Kyoto the primary target for the 2nd bombing mission that eventually
| devastated Nagasaki, as I have read in one report on the internet. I
| always thought Kyoto was not bombed due to the efforts of a certain US
| diplomat (?) who IIRC is actually buried in Kyoto.... maybe a myth.
|
| From my reading, I thought that Hiroshima was the primary target due
| to the concentration of military installations and command
| centers. Nagasaki was chosen because of the naval base
| installations. I don't know how true the allegations are that a city
| with modern concrete structures (Hiroshima) vs one with mostly
| traditional housing (Nagasaki) were chosen. Please correct my mistaken
| impressions!
|
| As far as a further mission is concerned, I thought that in the event
| of a third mission, not Tokyo but Sapporo was to be targetted. How far
| did plans for a third mission go, I did not find out even if there was
| enough fissionable material on hand to make another bomb immediately,
| or whether that would have taken further weeks or perhaps months.
|
| Any useful references would be appreciated, Google was not exactly
| conclusive and this is not my subject, hence I am not able to judge
| the quality of the references easily.
|
| Many thanks,
| Gernot
| --
| G Hassenpflug * IJN & JMSDF equipment/history fan


According to "Ruin from the air" Sphere books Ltd


Kyoto was favoured by General Groves as a target because it was a big city
that "must have been involved with war work"

Groves had it placed on the reserved target list for this reason.
Given that Kyoto was the ancient capital of Japan, prior to Tokyo, it was
an important cultural city, whose destruction may not have the effect on
Japanese morale that was desired.

After the war, Leslie Groves claimed he had put Kyoto on the target list ,
to protect it against conventional bombing.




Works for me....




Cheers

Dave Kearton

In article ,
Cub Driver writes:

"Great Artiste" (reportedly having served some time in SaR) was restored
and displayed at Pease AFB, and moved to Whiteman AFB when the New Hampshire
base closed.

Good grief. I didn't know I'd lived next door to the Great Artiste for
all those years. I do remember seeing a B-29 "on the hard" near the
main gate, but never paid any attention to it.

I don't know for certain that the airframe was truly that of "Great
Artiste". The base shops sure did a good job on her, though.

They had a pretty good little display there, at one point - The B-29,
a KC-97, a B-52D, and, the piece de resistance, what had been the last
flying B-47. (Which flew in in '77 or '78, with Navy markings, and a
crew from North American Autonetics.) The only types missing that the
509th BW had flown were a B-50 (Just not too many of them), and a
KB-29 (Ditto). I'm glad that at least the rare stuff got moved to
Whiteman. We'll just say that they went out there for the good weather.


Pease International Tradeport is still very much with us, though
quieter now than in the days when it was home to the B-52s. I haven't
landed there myself, but I often have occasion to talk to the tower,
which is still wont to tell people: "Check gear down and locked."

And, of course, for your J-3, you could land across that runway if you
had to.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:

Aerophotos writes:

snip

so that makes 3 atomic weapons on Tinain... so the USAAF could of
effectively bombed another target.. but chose not to..

Well no, as pointed out by other posters. But my question is, was
Kyoto the primary target for the 2nd bombing mission that eventually
devastated Nagasaki, as I have read in one report on the internet.

No, Kokura was the primary, they diverted to Nagasaki from Kokura, when the
latter was found to be covered with cloud (the order was to make a visual
drop).

I
always thought Kyoto was not bombed due to the efforts of a certain US
diplomat (?) who IIRC is actually buried in Kyoto.... maybe a myth.

Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson removed Kyoto from the target list, because
he considered it a cultural city of no military signficance, and bombing it
would be considered an act of barbarism. He'd visited it previously.
Nagasaki replaced it on the list.

From my reading, I thought that Hiroshima was the primary target due
to the concentration of military installations and command
centers. Nagasaki was chosen because of the naval base
installations.

Sort of. For the August 6th mission, weather recon a/c were dispatched to
Hiroshima, Kokura, and Nagasaki. The weather was good over Hiroshima,
allowing it to be bombed.

I don't know how true the allegations are that a city
with modern concrete structures (Hiroshima) vs one with mostly
traditional housing (Nagasaki) were chosen. Please correct my mistaken
impressions!

There was a list of four target cities: Hiroshima, Kokura, Nagasaki, and
Niigata, in order of precedence. Target weather saved Kokura and doomed
Nagasaki on August 9th.

As far as a further mission is concerned, I thought that in the event
of a third mission, not Tokyo but Sapporo was to be targetted. How far
did plans for a third mission go, I did not find out even if there was
enough fissionable material on hand to make another bomb immediately,
or whether that would have taken further weeks or perhaps months.

According to Richard B. Frank in "Downfall," Marshall and Groves had delayed
transport of components for a third bomb because they figured that two would
probably do the job. This meant that the next one couldn't be dropped before
about August 21st.

"General Farrell and Captain Parsons had met with General Twining, Admiral
Nimitz, and General Spaatz, and by the afternoon of August 9th they urged
Washington to review target lists since the 'effects at Trinity and Hiroshima
.. . . [had] far exceeded optimistic expectations.' They 'expressly
recommended' that the next bomb be dropped in the 'region of Tokyo' to
achieve maximum psychological effect. On August 14, Twining submitted a new
list of six targets in order of priority: Sapporo, Hakodate, Oyabu, Yokosuka,
Osaka, and Nagoya."

Later he writes that it was predicted that they'd have produced enough
material for about 7 bombs by October 31st. Marshall was considering holding
on to them and using them tactically for Olympic.

Guy

Aerophotos wrote:
The spare B-29 "Top Secret" was meant to be
the replacement for Enola
Gay for the 6th August... if she had broken
down in flight.. and RTB...

Does anyone know what happened to Top Secret's
bombload? on the Aug 6th
mission???

so that makes 3 atomic weapons on Tinain...
so the USAAF could of
effectively bombed another target.. but chose
not to..

Matt Tauber wrote:

George Marquardt died on 8/15. Marquardt
was the pilot of "Necessary Evil",
the B29 that photographed the Hiroshima blast.

Does anyone know if "Necessary Evil" still
exists...or other planes from the
509th? I know "Bockscar" is at the WPAFB
museum, and "Enola Gay" is safely
in storage where no one can be offended by
it. How about the other 12
planes, like "Strange Cargo" or "Next Objective".
Any thoughts?

Matt Tauber

--
Top Secret was the spare waiting at Iwo Jima in case of a problem with
Enola Gay en route-they would
have landed at Iwo and transferred the bomb to Top Secret and pressed on
with the mission. Only two bombs were at Tinian-No.3 (a Fat Man type) wasn't
to be shipped until Aug. 11th. from Los Alamos.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

| so that makes 3 atomic weapons on Tinain... so the USAAF could of
| effectively bombed another target.. but chose not to..

No, there were only the two. The "third bomb" was still in the United
States. Supposedly it was being loaded for transshipment to Tinian
(the primary target evidently Kokura) when it was stopped by direct
order of President Truman. See www.danford.net/third.htm

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Dave Kearton" wrote:

"Gernot Hassenpflug"
wrote in message
Well no, as pointed out by other posters. But
my question is, was
| Kyoto the primary target for the 2nd bombing
mission that eventually
| devastated Nagasaki, as I have read in one
report on the internet. I
| always thought Kyoto was not bombed due to
the efforts of a certain US
| diplomat (?) who IIRC is actually buried in
Kyoto.... maybe a myth.
|
| From my reading, I thought that Hiroshima
was the primary target due
| to the concentration of military installations
and command
| centers. Nagasaki was chosen because of the
naval base
| installations. I don't know how true the allegations
are that a city
| with modern concrete structures (Hiroshima)
vs one with mostly
| traditional housing (Nagasaki) were chosen.
Please correct my mistaken
| impressions!
|
| As far as a further mission is concerned,
I thought that in the event
| of a third mission, not Tokyo but Sapporo
was to be targetted. How far
| did plans for a third mission go, I did not
find out even if there was
| enough fissionable material on hand to make
another bomb immediately,
| or whether that would have taken further weeks
or perhaps months.
|
| Any useful references would be appreciated,
Google was not exactly
| conclusive and this is not my subject, hence
I am not able to judge
| the quality of the references easily.
|
| Many thanks,
| Gernot
| --
| G Hassenpflug * IJN & JMSDF equipment/history
fan


According to "Ruin from the air" Sphere books
Ltd


Kyoto was favoured by General Groves as a target
because it was a big city
that "must have been involved with war work"

Groves had it placed on the reserved target
list for this reason.
Given that Kyoto was the ancient capital of
Japan, prior to Tokyo, it was
an important cultural city, whose destruction
may not have the effect on
Japanese morale that was desired.

After the war, Leslie Groves claimed he had
put Kyoto on the target list ,
to protect it against conventional bombing.




Works for me....




Cheers

Dave Kearton





These were the targets as per the order given to Gen. Carl Spaatz, who
was the CO of the Strategic Air Force Pacific: Hiroshima, Kokura, Nagasaki,
Niigata. Additional targets were to be selected later if more than four bombs
needed to be dropped.
Tokyo was practically worthless as an atomic target by this time.
Regarding Kyoto: Groves wanted to hit Kyoto, but Secretary of War Stimson
overruled him on this and had it taken off the list, and Truman agreed. Groves
wanted to reinstate Kyoto if more bombs were necessary after the first four.


Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

These were the targets as per the order given to Gen. Carl Spaatz, who
was the CO of the Strategic Air Force Pacific: Hiroshima, Kokura, Nagasaki,
Niigata

Matt, what is your source for this?

To judge by the radio traffic, Spaatz has nothing to do with
targeting. (It was his headquarters that urged that Tokyo be bombed.)

I've never heard of Niigata, either as city or as target. It's very
small--300,000 in 1950. What was there that made it of interest?

Kokura as I recall had one of the last oil refineries still
functioning in Japan, and I think it was bombed in the
"thousand-plane" raid of Aug 14/15, with the last bombs falling after
midnight local time, when Japan had dispatched its surrender message
to Switzerland.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

George W. Marquardt, an Army Air Forces pilot who took part in the
World War II atomic bomb raids on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, died Aug. 15
at a nursing-care center in Murray, Utah. He was 84.
On the morning of Aug. 6, 1945, Marquardt, an Army major, flew a B-29
Superfortress carrying photographic equipment over Hiroshima.
His bomber -- designated No. 91 but later called Necessary Evil by its
crew --

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/6603618.htm

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

These were the targets as per the order given to Gen. Carl Spaatz, who
was the CO of the Strategic Air Force Pacific: Hiroshima, Kokura,
Nagasaki,
Niigata

Matt, what is your source for this?

To judge by the radio traffic, Spaatz has nothing to do with
targeting. (It was his headquarters that urged that Tokyo be bombed.)

I've never heard of Niigata, either as city or as target. It's very
small--300,000 in 1950. What was there that made it of interest?

From a bit of persistent Googling, it appears that all four cities were
relatively untouched by previous bombing raids which would allow the true
extent of any damage to demonstrate the power of the atom bomb.
Also, Niigata was/is a large port on the Sea of Japan with a tanker
terminal, an oil refinery, and iron works, all of which were still working.
It got ruled out because it was too far away during the raid.

http://www.dannen.com/decision/targets.html#D

HTH,
Nick

From a bit of persistent Googling, it appears that all four cities were
relatively untouched by previous bombing raids which would allow the true

I'd rather see a citation in a book, with sources I can check!


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com