Mustang Collision Oshkosh

Gattman said the following on 28/07/07 00:41:
http://www.wfrv.com/news/local/story...5-fd0ca17e627c


OSHKOSH (AP) - The Federal Aviation Administration says one pilot is
confirmed dead today after two planes collided while landing at EAA's
AirVenture.
The FAA says the accident with the two P-51 Mustangs happened at shortly
after 3pm, after the planes finished a performance at the Experimental
Aircraft Association's show.

Investigators with the FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board are
investigating.

The last fatal crash at EAA Airventure happened last year on July 23. A
Washington state couple was killed when their single engine, home-built
plane crashed on approach at Whittman Regional Airport.

That fateful moment.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/27/airshow.crash.ap/



--
"Initiative is punishable."
Russian business saying.

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:41:28 -0700, "Gattman"
wrote:


http://www.wfrv.com/news/local/story...5-fd0ca17e627c


OSHKOSH (AP) - The Federal Aviation Administration says one pilot is
confirmed dead today after two planes collided while landing at EAA's
AirVenture...

Update:

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/ind...07d b116a5449

Wahpeton man killed after planes collide at air show
Kim Winnegge, The Forum
Published Saturday, July 28, 2007

A Wahpeton, N.D., man died Friday after performing in a Wisconsin air
show.

Gerald Beck, 58, died after the plane he was flying collided with one
flown by Casey Odegaard, 24, of Kindred.

The men each were flying P-51 Mustangs, single-seat fighters used
during World War II, at the experimental air show in Osh Kosh, Wis.,
officials said.

My condolences to the family of the deceased pilot.

Not enough data to second guess what happened but I have hundreds of
formation landings in the P-51.

The procedure was for leader of flight to land on the down wind side
of the runway. That way any prop wash would not blow across the runway
and into the #2 as he flared or touched down.

Also the #1 man landed as close to the edge of the R/W as he could
(wing over the R/W lights on narrow R/w's) and the #2 landed as far to
the other side of R/W as he could to give maximum clearance between
the wings if an overrun took place.

The #2 would use the radio and tell the #1 that he was down and had
his bird under control and was not overrunning the #1. If the #2 was
over running #1 then he told #1 and #1 put on power to give more
clearance.

In the three years I flew the bird I don't remember any overruns in
the FTRGP. This was on narrow WWII Japanese runways (75 Ft) to wide
R/W's (200 ft) we built.

Does anyone know if the birds pitched or flew a rectangular pattern?

Basic procedure is you have the air speed and touch down under control
and no overruns.

Comments on this Dudley?

Big John

************************************************** ****




On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 16:41:28 -0700, "Gattman"
wrote:


http://www.wfrv.com/news/local/story...5-fd0ca17e627c


OSHKOSH (AP) - The Federal Aviation Administration says one pilot is
confirmed dead today after two planes collided while landing at EAA's
AirVenture.
The FAA says the accident with the two P-51 Mustangs happened at shortly
after 3pm, after the planes finished a performance at the Experimental
Aircraft Association's show.

Investigators with the FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board are
investigating.

The last fatal crash at EAA Airventure happened last year on July 23. A
Washington state couple was killed when their single engine, home-built
plane crashed on approach at Whittman Regional Airport.

Big John wrote:
My condolences to the family of the deceased pilot.

Not enough data to second guess what happened but I have hundreds of
formation landings in the P-51.

The procedure was for leader of flight to land on the down wind side
of the runway. That way any prop wash would not blow across the runway
and into the #2 as he flared or touched down.

Also the #1 man landed as close to the edge of the R/W as he could
(wing over the R/W lights on narrow R/w's) and the #2 landed as far to
the other side of R/W as he could to give maximum clearance between
the wings if an overrun took place.

The #2 would use the radio and tell the #1 that he was down and had
his bird under control and was not overrunning the #1. If the #2 was
over running #1 then he told #1 and #1 put on power to give more
clearance.

In the three years I flew the bird I don't remember any overruns in
the FTRGP. This was on narrow WWII Japanese runways (75 Ft) to wide
R/W's (200 ft) we built.

Does anyone know if the birds pitched or flew a rectangular pattern?

Basic procedure is you have the air speed and touch down under control
and no overruns.

Comments on this Dudley?

Big John

Just saw the complete film of the crash.
Runway 36 at Oshkosh is 150 feet wide as I remember it. The 2 Mustangs
were dissimilar; a D flown by Odegard, and an A, flown by Beck. Beck was
the trailer to the left and behind the D through touchdown.
They were trying to execute a section landing. The D looked normal to me
on final airspeed wise. He touched down on the mains and was fairly tail
high in his roll out. His tailwheel hadn't settled in before he was hit.
Beck looked a bit hot to me. There definitely (obviously) was a closure
rate through the landing. It looked to me as though Beck was hot and
just a bit long through his landing....not much, but he had overtake.
Beck's right wingtip looked like it impacted the left horizontal
stabilizer on the D. There must have been a strong positive pitch moment
induced as they hit. The D pitched forward violently right through the
prop and onto the spinner where it dug in hard. I can't explain the
behavior of the A other than an involuntary pitch input on the stick by
Beck as he felt the impact. His right wintip must have been under the
D's stabilizer to cause the violent pitchup and over to inverted
suffered by the A. The A pitched up hard and to the right and went in
inverted behind the D. It looked like Beck must have been killed instantly.
These things happen so fast you can be looking right at them and even
with an experienced eye, not be seeing what actually happened.
I have no idea what the NTSB will find but from what I just saw on the
film , the section looked too tight for a section landing with Mustangs.
Being too tight over the fence with the trailer a bit hot and producing
a positive closure rate on the lead would be a bad situation flying 51's.
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ...


I have no idea what the NTSB will find but from what I just saw on the film , the section looked too tight for a
section landing with Mustangs. Being too tight over the fence with the trailer a bit hot and producing a positive
closure rate on the lead would be a bad situation flying 51's.
Dudley Henriques


It seems like most of the 'formation' or section as you call them landings I saw had #2 touching down first then #1.
That way #2 could begin slowing as #1 touched down, then #2 could match #1 speed and both could then come to a safe
stop. #2 closing on #1 is bad indeed.

What is the specific meaning of a section landing? Is it simply 2 planes basically landing at the same time?

Blueskies wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ...

I have no idea what the NTSB will find but from what I just saw on the film , the section looked too tight for a
section landing with Mustangs. Being too tight over the fence with the trailer a bit hot and producing a positive
closure rate on the lead would be a bad situation flying 51's.
Dudley Henriques


It seems like most of the 'formation' or section as you call them landings I saw had #2 touching down first then #1.
That way #2 could begin slowing as #1 touched down, then #2 could match #1 speed and both could then come to a safe
stop. #2 closing on #1 is bad indeed.

What is the specific meaning of a section landing? Is it simply 2 planes basically landing at the same time?




2 planes are a section; 4 a flight.
Normally for jets, or as is the case for nose wheel airplanes generally,
you do a section landing with the wingman directly back but not stacked
down. You touchdown with lead and maintain position through the roll out.
For tail wheel airplanes this is a whole new ball game because of the
peripheral visibility cues and lack of visibility directly over the nose
through touchdown. This issue is especially present in Mustangs.
I have never advocated section landings in Mustangs for civilian pilots
for the above reasons.
It is interesting to note as well that Warbirds of America and the
Confederate Air Force do not encourage section landings in P51's for the
same reason.
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote

It is interesting to note as well that Warbirds of America and the
Confederate Air Force do not encourage section landings in P51's for the
same reason.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't ever recall 51's
doing formation landings at OSH. They usually land with at least 200 feet
between them.

I can't figure why they felt the need to formation land, this time.

Regardless, condolences. A sad way to go.
--
Jim in NC

Dudley and anyone else,
I was listening with my scanner and heard the P-51A call "Precious Metal,
one mile final", but no further radio calls. I glanced to the south and saw
the P-51A, but not the D, still a good ways out. I then focused on watching
the Sea Fury and Tigercat rolling out until I heard the crowd gasp at which
point I looked south and saw the P-51A pitch up and roll inverted and the
P-51D pitch over on its nose. From the video it seems to me that they
weren't necessarily landing as a section or in formation, that it's
possible that the P-51D cut into the pattern and Beck in the P-51A never
saw the P-51D until too late. The video begins showing the P-51A higher and
hotter and well behind the D, and it seems to me that right at the start of
the video there was pretty good separation between the two which the P-51A
closed quickly. Is it possible in your experience and knowing the
visibility over the nose of a Mustang that Beck in the P-51A didn't see the
P-51D, and never knew he was there until too late, and that Odegaard maybe
turned in front of him in the pattern? I'd love to see a video showing
them from further out in the approach, but I'm interested in your opinion.
Scott Wilson

wrote:
Dudley and anyone else,
I was listening with my scanner and heard the P-51A call "Precious Metal,
one mile final", but no further radio calls. I glanced to the south and saw
the P-51A, but not the D, still a good ways out. I then focused on watching
the Sea Fury and Tigercat rolling out until I heard the crowd gasp at which
point I looked south and saw the P-51A pitch up and roll inverted and the
P-51D pitch over on its nose. From the video it seems to me that they
weren't necessarily landing as a section or in formation, that it's
possible that the P-51D cut into the pattern and Beck in the P-51A never
saw the P-51D until too late. The video begins showing the P-51A higher and
hotter and well behind the D, and it seems to me that right at the start of
the video there was pretty good separation between the two which the P-51A
closed quickly. Is it possible in your experience and knowing the
visibility over the nose of a Mustang that Beck in the P-51A didn't see the
P-51D, and never knew he was there until too late, and that Odegaard maybe
turned in front of him in the pattern? I'd love to see a video showing
them from further out in the approach, but I'm interested in your opinion.
Scott Wilson

This is of course a possibility that the investigation team will have
verified or discounted by now from the ATC interviews. If the D was an
incursion I'd have looked for something having been released to that
effect by now....but I could be wrong.
My gut feeling is that they were just too close and had overtake.
To answer your question about not seeing the D; the Mustang with flaps
down has fairly good runway visuals over the nose on final. I would
guess that Beck had the D visually until he flared.
Dudley Henriques

On Jul 27, 6:41 pm, "Gattman" wrote:
http://www.wfrv.com/news/local/story...5fd653-6d41-46...

OSHKOSH (AP) - The Federal Aviation Administration says one pilot is
confirmed dead today after two planes collided while landing at EAA's
AirVenture.
The FAA says the accident with the two P-51 Mustangs happened at shortly
after 3pm, after the planes finished a performance at the Experimental
Aircraft Association's show.

Investigators with the FAA and the National Transportation Safety Board are
investigating.

The last fatal crash at EAA Airventure happened last year on July 23. A
Washington state couple was killed when their single engine, home-built
plane crashed on approach at Whittman Regional Airport.

I was a fighter pilot for the Air Force for several years and hated
formation landings more than anything else I ever did. No room for
error.

Danny Deger