Foolish Buyer Tricks

Jay Honeck wrote:

You know, I've heard that ever since I started using mogas in my
planes, but I've never seen a cite, nor have I *ever* noticed a
problem with unleaded gasoline in *any* of my lawn mowers, leaf
blowers, or snow blowers.

I put 'em away in the spring/winter, and start 'em up the following
winter/summer -- and away we go. Same with my Honda Goldwing -- I top
it off, and it just sits till next year. No troubles.

My experience as well.

Last spring I got my chainsaw down from the garage
attic. It had been *at least* 10 years since I
had started it. Topped up the tank and it ran fine.

I used to run the gas out of the carb on my
lawnmower in the fall. Stopped doing it and
it didn't make any difference.

{gas/storage..}


Yesterday's gas is not today's... Fuel injection in cars raised
the bar on what is usable gas. Even so, long storage of gas
is not a good idea.


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Jim Stewart wrote:


Last spring I got my chainsaw down from the garage
attic. It had been *at least* 10 years since I
had started it. Topped up the tank and it ran fine.


2-cycle oil has stabilizers in it. When you mix it up
it will last a long long time.

I thought that was just an "old'n days" problem?

John

Jay Honeck wrote:
How long was "a while"? Unleaded mogas won't "gum up" anything for
years -- unless, of course, the mogas had ethanol in it. Then it
will supposedly start attacking rubber seals.

Not true. Leave unleaded mogas in your lawnmower for a year, and it
likely won't start. Autogas lacks the stabilizer package found in
avgas.


You know, I've heard that ever since I started using mogas in my
planes, but I've never seen a cite, nor have I *ever* noticed a
problem with unleaded gasoline in *any* of my lawn mowers, leaf
blowers, or snow blowers.

I put 'em away in the spring/winter, and start 'em up the following
winter/summer -- and away we go. Same with my Honda Goldwing -- I top
it off, and it just sits till next year. No troubles.

Can anyone point me to anything that proves (or disproves) the "fact"
that unleaded mogas deteriorates faster than avgas?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

.stuff snipped
Can anyone point me to anything that proves (or disproves) the "fact"
that unleaded mogas deteriorates faster than avgas?
--
.othe stuff snipped

I believe this may have started with some poster way back looking at the
shelf life recommendations that come from the oil companies. Of course,
they will say gasoline lasts 3 weeks and you should drain your tank,
throw it out, and buy new stuff if you keep it longer. Their whole angle
is to avoid liability. Similarly, someone (mechanics, FAA, Mogas STC
producers, whoever) made some statements about the "limited" shelf life
of mogas vs. avgas. Opponents to mogas seem happy to spout off about the
"dangers" of mogas, including their conclusion that it "goes bad quickly".

Those with chemical backgrounds look over the ingredients lists for
avgas and mogas and come to the conclusion that a shorter shelf life for
mogas makes sense.

The question Jay asks is: where is the scientific data that shows how
long these fuels last when stored before bad stuff happens? I'll bet the
answer is "it depends". Probably depends on the time stored,
temperatures, amount of humidity in the air, water present in the fuel,
how much agitation, specific blend of fuel and additives, sunspots,
solar flares, karma, aliens... who knows?

Likely also that fuels change slowly over time. So, what is "bad"? Not
sure we have an established baseline for when this mysterious threshold
is reached. Airplane folks will likely agree that fuel that won't start
their engine qualifies. How about fuel that starts the engine and kills
it later, at altitude, gums up the fuel system, clogs the screens over
time, vapor locks when hot, etc.? Is that "bad"?

It is likely there are enough variables to skew the storage numbers
quite a bit. And, all the stories about how one person does this and it
works fine and another person does that and it turns to crud means...
well, nothing.

As Jay requests, bring on the data.

Avgas does smell better...

Have fun beating this to death,
Mike

"Mike Spera" wrote ...
Probably depends on the time stored, temperatures, amount
of humidity in the air, water present in the fuel, how much
agitation, specific blend of fuel and additives, sunspots, solar flares,
karma, aliens... who knows?

Who Knows ?!? Those are all quantifiable, so an engineer
would know,.... except for Karma,... that's clearly marketing.

On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 09:37:24 -0500, Mike Spera
wrote:


.stuff snipped
Can anyone point me to anything that proves (or disproves) the "fact"
that unleaded mogas deteriorates faster than avgas?
--
.othe stuff snipped

I believe this may have started with some poster way back looking at the
shelf life recommendations that come from the oil companies. Of course,
they will say gasoline lasts 3 weeks and you should drain your tank,
throw it out, and buy new stuff if you keep it longer. Their whole angle
is to avoid liability. Similarly, someone (mechanics, FAA, Mogas STC
producers, whoever) made some statements about the "limited" shelf life
of mogas vs. avgas. Opponents to mogas seem happy to spout off about the
"dangers" of mogas, including their conclusion that it "goes bad quickly".

Those with chemical backgrounds look over the ingredients lists for
avgas and mogas and come to the conclusion that a shorter shelf life for
mogas makes sense.

The question Jay asks is: where is the scientific data that shows how
long these fuels last when stored before bad stuff happens? I'll bet the
answer is "it depends". Probably depends on the time stored,
temperatures, amount of humidity in the air, water present in the fuel,
how much agitation, specific blend of fuel and additives, sunspots,
solar flares, karma, aliens... who knows?

I can only give antidotal evidence, but I never drain the tanks in the
tractor, generator, snow blowers, lawn mowers...etc. Some of it ends
up in there for several years and I've never had mo gas go bad.

HOWEVER...When I shut down any one of them and know it will be for a
while, I do shut off the gas and let the thing run until the carb is
dry and the engine quits. If you leave the carb full of gas the stuff
will slowly evaporate over long periods and that will form "gunk". Gas
in my big generator may end up as old as two years. I turn on the gas,
give it time to fill the carb float bowl (just a few minutes) and it's
never failed to start.


Likely also that fuels change slowly over time. So, what is "bad"? Not
sure we have an established baseline for when this mysterious threshold
is reached. Airplane folks will likely agree that fuel that won't start
their engine qualifies. How about fuel that starts the engine and kills
it later, at altitude, gums up the fuel system, clogs the screens over
time, vapor locks when hot, etc.? Is that "bad"?

Gum forms when fuel evaporates. If it can't evaporate I can't see how
it could form deposits. With the stuff still being good after two
years, I really don't believe it breaks down with age, or at least not
nearly as fast as some say.

Even back on the farm in "the old days" we never had problems with gas
going bad in storage or in the tractors over the winter.
We had both above and below ground storage.

This has been my experience.

Roger (K8RI)


It is likely there are enough variables to skew the storage numbers
quite a bit. And, all the stories about how one person does this and it
works fine and another person does that and it turns to crud means...
well, nothing.

As Jay requests, bring on the data.

Avgas does smell better...

Have fun beating this to death,
Mike

On Sep 14, 2:56 pm, Michael wrote:


It takes an IA to sign off an annual - and he can do so without ever
seeing it run. That's because a lot of the things that normally get
done at annual are not part of the annual inspection, and can be done
by an A&P without the IA or even by the owner.
...
When he shows up, I doubt he will care about starting the engine. He
will probably just check compressions and magneto timing, inspect the
cables, pulleys, and other moving parts with flashlight and mirror,
check whatever other things the type requires (it's usually only a few
things, generally by AD) and call it good. He doesn't need to see the
engine run. You can put it all back together later all by yourself.

It's all legal - but just because an engine passes the compression
check and magneto timing check, that does not mean it will run.

Michael

Sorry Michael, but you're wrong.

FAR Part 43.15 specifically requires the IA to run the engine:

"(2) Each person approving a reciprocating-engine-powered aircraft for
return to service after an annual or 100-hour inspection shall, before
that approval, run the aircraft engine or engines to determine
satisfactory performance in accordance with the manufacturer's
recommendations of--
(i) Power output (static and idle r.p.m.);
(ii) Magnetos;
(iii) Fuel and oil pressure; and
(iv) Cylinder and oil temperature."

We had an estate auction in this area recently where 4 vintage aircraft
were sold. Unfortunately (for the buyers), the rules of the auction
prevented anything more than a logbook review and a cursory look at the
aircraft.

Was someone holding them hostage and forcing them to bid on aircraft?
They did not have to bid on them.. High Risk?? Bid Low..

BT

I'd think the local FSDO people would be interested in whoever signed
them off as airworthy. If nothing else, that's what the FSDO should
be for.