Force feedback versus real piloting?

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

Even commercial ones aren't flying and
don't even come close to duplicating flight. They're good for practicing
procedures, emergencies etc, but none of them fly like an airplane.

List a few of the differences. Be specific.

The Old Bloke writes:

We must distinguish between MSFS and commercial simulators

Yes, but he said "even the best sims" without further qualification, and the
best sims are not PC-based (unless one is only considering PC sims, of
course).

Mxsmanic wrote in
news
The Old Bloke writes:

We must distinguish between MSFS and commercial simulators

Yes, but he said "even the best sims" without further qualification,
and the best sims are not PC-based (unless one is only considering PC
sims, of course).


PC sims are toys.

You're as qualified from flying those as would be some kid running around
with a dinky toy making airplane noises.


Fjukkwit

Bertie

Isn't the general consensus here that force feedback is unrealistic?
Maybe I've read the wrong threads or those comments were from non-
pilots?

I've taken the flight sim thing as far as money will allow (see our
Kiwi at:
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/flight_simulator.htm ), and can tell you
that force-feedback sticks are cool, but not terribly helpful in a
flight sim -- mostly because (to my knowledge) no one makes a force-
feedback yoke/rudder pedal combination.

I have used Force-feedback sticks in combat sims, and they are very
cool -- but I don't fly fighters, and our Kiwi is set up to replicate
GA flying. (It's a prototype of sims we want to put in at the Iowa
Childrens Museum, as part of a major aviation exhibit...)

If someone were to come out with a Force-feedback yoke, I'd probably
buy it, though. The concept is a good one, but apparently it's MUCH
harder to incorporate in a yoke.

As for whether flying a sim is "real" -- our Kiwi is flown by real
pilots every day at our aviation theme-suite hotel. Pilots from all
over the world have checked it out, and -- although it has obvious
limitations -- it's as real as you can get without leaving the
ground.

The main limitations are (in order of importance):

- No peripheral vision. Even with a 104" projection screen, it's
still like flying a real plane whilst looking through 4" PVC pipes.

- No feedback. In a real plane, if you pull back on the yoke too hard
you know at once to release the back pressure because the G-forces
tell you. In the sim, newbie non-pilots routinely overstress the
planes, simply because they don't know how hard to pull. (Real
pilots, of course, have a built-in sense of what not to do. They,
therefore, don't ever run up against this limitation.)

- No motion. This is less important than you might believe, as your
brain substitutes for the lack of motion. That big screen has made
several people motion sick, without them ever moving an inch.

In the future I want to add a side window screen that will go a long
ways toward addressing the lack of peripheral vision. The other two
limitations are things that can't be addressed for less than a million
bucks...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck writes:

- No motion. This is less important than you might believe, as your
brain substitutes for the lack of motion. That big screen has made
several people motion sick, without them ever moving an inch.

I've had trouble with motion sickness in slew mode on the sim. Then again,
I've had the same trouble with some video games, such as Doom. Apparently it
is quite common. If the movements on the screen exceed those of real life,
motion sickness is quite a risk. It obviously could still make someone sick
if the sim is showing motion that would make someone sick in real life.

In the future I want to add a side window screen that will go a long
ways toward addressing the lack of peripheral vision. The other two
limitations are things that can't be addressed for less than a million
bucks...

A million dollars is quite an exaggeration, but it would be very expensive,
perhaps more than it's worth for this type of use.

Also, a motion base is important if you fly by feel in a small aircraft or a
high-performance aerobatic or military aircraft, but if you're flying large
airliners, you don't need it much for normal flight. Strong sensations on an
airliner are often an indication of a bad pilot.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Jay Honeck writes:

- No motion. This is less important than you might believe, as your
brain substitutes for the lack of motion. That big screen has made
several people motion sick, without them ever moving an inch.

I've had trouble with motion sickness in slew mode on the sim. Then
again, I've had the same trouble with some video games, such as Doom.
Apparently it is quite common. If the movements on the screen exceed
those of real life, motion sickness is quite a risk. It obviously
could still make someone sick if the sim is showing motion that would
make someone sick in real life.

In the future I want to add a side window screen that will go a long
ways toward addressing the lack of peripheral vision. The other two
limitations are things that can't be addressed for less than a
million bucks...

A million dollars is quite an exaggeration, but it would be very
expensive, perhaps more than it's worth for this type of use.

Also, a motion base is important if you fly by feel in a small
aircraft or a high-performance aerobatic or military aircraft, but if
you're flying large airliners, you don't need it much for normal
flight.


Yeah, right, that's why they spend millions on a six axis motion system


Fjukkwit


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

Yeah, right, that's why they spend millions on a six axis motion system

The motion system adds credibility and realism for an airliner. The idea is
not to teach pilots about the sensations, but to provide sensations that make
the rest of the simulation realistic enough to confuse with real life.

This is quite different from using a motion base to teach pilots how to fly by
the seat of their pants (which they must not do in an airliner).

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

Yeah, right, that's why they spend millions on a six axis motion
system

The motion system adds credibility and realism for an airliner. The
idea is not to teach pilots about the sensations, but to provide
sensations that make the rest of the simulation realistic enough to
confuse with real life.


But oyu said that the big sims are just the same.

~you're confused, aintcha/



This is quite different from using a motion base to teach pilots how
to fly by the seat of their pants (which they must not do in an
airliner).


Yes, we do.


Bertie

I've had trouble with motion sickness in slew mode on the sim. Then again,
I've had the same trouble with some video games, such as Doom. Apparently it
is quite common. If the movements on the screen exceed those of real life,
motion sickness is quite a risk. It obviously could still make someone sick
if the sim is showing motion that would make someone sick in real life.

Yeah, I used to play Quake (one of the early first-person shooters),
and could easily make myself nauseated by "running" through
buildings.

I never have the problem in the Kiwi when I'm flying, even when doing
aerobatics in an Extra 300 (Yes, Viperdoc, it's got your plane in it!
Actually Patty Wagstaff's, but I digress...). I have felt queasy
*watching* others fly, though, especially ham-fisted newbies who over-
control in all three axes...

We had one little girl puke when her dad (a non-pilot) simply could
NOT stop over-controlling the roll axis. Back, and forth, and back,
and forth, and...**urp**.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I've tried MSFS with the Extra 300 model. Unfortunately, it came pretty
short. The roll and pitch rates were too slow, and not very responsive.

Also, much of acro is visceral, a sense of how hard you need to push or
pull, and this just doesn't across well with MSFS.

I have used it to practice approaches in the Baron, and it seems to be more
useful here. It was especially good in reviewing approaches in different
environments and locations.