40,000 Plus Hits. Thank you all.

Mike Marron wrote:When Ed said Kramer was guilty of "demeaning the whole
warrior ethic," the "Autocollimator" person subsequently responded:

That's weird. Especially when Ed gives Art credit in his recent book.

Just make me think. Does Mike have a wife , girlfriend or even a life? Any
kids on the way? You can draw your own conclusions about these questions.
VL

In article , Mike Marron wrote:

Perhaps, but I remain convinced that Kramer is posting anonymously
as "Autocollimator" (speaking of whom, where IS this mysterious
"Autocollimator" person anyway?)

Mike,

Here's an exerpt from your earlier post:

For the rest of the happy group assembled, here is an example of how
"Art Kramer" formats his posts....

Subject: Little friend takes big brother home.
From: (Autocollimator)
Date: 10/29/03 6:48 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


Now here is an example of how "Autocollimator" formats his posts.....


Subject: Little friend takes big brother home.
From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 10/29/03 11:21 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Your Big Revelation seems to have a little boo boo--namely, you mixed
up which was which. The fact that two people have some similarities in
their posting styles and happen to use the same software strikes me as
less than conclusive. You ask "who is this 'Autocollimator' person anyway?"
Maybe it's you. It would be an interesting technique to allow you to
put words in the mouth of someone that you didn't like. There's nearly
the same amount of evidence, just with a different spin. [Note: insert
your favorite smiley here.]

Anyway, who cares? I always enjoy Art's postings, and if I do or don't
agree with his political statements, I can just separate them from
his stories and other views.

Regards,

Mike

(Peter Stickney) wrote:

There's only one problem with that, Mike. Autocollimater's posts are
coming through nntp (Net News Transport Protocol) Server
,
and Art's are coming through nntp server mb-m10.aol.com.
AOL, like everybody else, has their News Servers set up to handle a
particular set of POP (Points of Presense), and, therefore, service a
particular geographic area. The area serviced by an nntp server is
large enough that, say, calling a POP in an adjacent locale will, by
and large, have you posting your stuff through the same server. So
what those message IDs are telling us is that Art and Autocollimater
may well be in the same Time Zone, but they aren't near each other.

--
Pete Stickney

Good try Pete but your last para there is inaccurate.

Those nntp's can be changed around (almost) at will. You may
notice that I use one in New Brunswick instead of my local one
here on PEI because I find it faster. I've even tried several in
Ontario (1000 miles West of here) some work, others don't.

They're not hard to change at all, so "both of these posters"
could indeed be the "same one". Also, the word Autocollimater is
a 'nonword' but 'collimater' means:

1 : a device for producing a beam of parallel rays (as of light)
or for forming an infinitely distant virtual image that can be
viewed without parallax

Possibly some system inside or related to a bombsight?

Just noodling around here...no accusations forthcoming.

--

-Gord.

In article ,
"Gord Beaman" ) writes:
(Peter Stickney) wrote:

There's only one problem with that, Mike. Autocollimater's posts are
coming through nntp (Net News Transport Protocol) Server
,
and Art's are coming through nntp server mb-m10.aol.com.
AOL, like everybody else, has their News Servers set up to handle a
particular set of POP (Points of Presense), and, therefore, service a
particular geographic area. The area serviced by an nntp server is
large enough that, say, calling a POP in an adjacent locale will, by
and large, have you posting your stuff through the same server. So
what those message IDs are telling us is that Art and Autocollimater
may well be in the same Time Zone, but they aren't near each other.

--
Pete Stickney

Good try Pete but your last para there is inaccurate.

Those nntp's can be changed around (almost) at will. You may
notice that I use one in New Brunswick instead of my local one
here on PEI because I find it faster. I've even tried several in
Ontario (1000 miles West of here) some work, others don't.

I may have jumped the gun a bit in my attempt to oversimplify.
With the exception of AOL, Gord, I'd say you're absolutely correct.
(Astute header readers will know that despite my living in New
Hampshire, USA, I'm posting through a News Server in Germany.
(Adelphia's not the greatest at nntp connectivity)
However, to the best of my knowledge, AOL's servers are only open to
AOL's customers, and AOL's browser/reader software doesn't give you
the option of switching/selecting the nntp server that you're using.
Theere are some other clues, as well. The header information in
Art's, Auticollimater's, and, for that matter, Gordon's (krztalizer)
posting is incomplete, in a manner characteristic of AOL's software.

That isn't to say that it wouldn't be possible to arrange entry through
a different POP, but that's much more expensive, devious, and time
consuming that opening up a false Google Posting ID, and using that.

Mind you, there can be other ways, as well - I could make it appear
that I was posting from Mcmurdo Sound, if I wanted to bend a few
rules - but the people who are capable of that tend not to be
long-time AOL users.


They're not hard to change at all, so "both of these posters"
could indeed be the "same one". Also, the word Autocollimater is
a 'nonword' but 'collimater' means:

1 : a device for producing a beam of parallel rays (as of light)
or for forming an infinitely distant virtual image that can be
viewed without parallax

Possibly some system inside or related to a bombsight?

Possible, but there are a lot of other collimaters out there, as
well. I'm using a chunk of a Gamma Ray Collimater as a paperweight,
for example. (A chunk of Lead Honeycomb about 4" thick)

Just noodling around here...no accusations forthcoming.

No need for any importance. Until we're all in the same room, our
persona is what we post, warts and all. The impressions we make color
everything we do. In my case, it matters not if Art just happens to
_be_ AC, no matter what my belief. Art may very well be a Crusty Old
*******, and some of his opinions and online mannerisms may be
abrasive as All Get Out, but I value his storytelling of his time in
the nose of a Marauder, and of life in the chaos of immediate postwar
Europe. If Joe Heller had been willing to share his typewriter, there
might have been a different movie made.

Mike, on the other hand, is trying too hard to be Hot Rock Harry,
Roger Rudder's illegitimate brother, that I've really got to question
his judgement. There are times when he seems to really know what he's
talking about, and many other times when he's the Cock of the Walk
with 100 hours under his belt. He does seem to suffer from the
Ultralight version of Short Man's Syndrome, where he's trying so
damned hard to make his ultralight the Greatest Thing since the Moller
Sky Car. If his real life persona is as twitchy and "fangs out" as
his online persona, I fully expect him to show up in the NTSB's
statistics someday, hopefully without killing anybody else. But
that's just his online persona - who knows what he (or any of us) are
in real life.

It's kind of amusing, to think of the possibilities -
John Tarver may actually be a Professor of Thermodynamics and History.
Grantland may actually be a Bantu. Bernardx might be a Rabbi. Denyav
might actually have grown up on Earth. Me, I'm James Bond and Derek
Flint, all rolled into one (and short enough to be an Astronaut,
besides) .


--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Not only that, the real Kramer died in 1988.




"Mike Marron" wrote
(Autocollimator) wrote:
(ArtKramr) wrote:

My website just passed the 40,000 hit mark. more than I ever dreamt possible,
athough Bob McKellar knew it all along. I never thought there was so much
interest in that war so long gone and behind us. Thank you all for your
constant repeat visits and warm, encouraging E-Mails that come on a daily
basis from all over the world.. Makes this old Bombardier feel good all over.

Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat being there no
matter what. I look for your posts every time I log on. Keep 'em flying.

Since it's Halloween and all, just curious Art if you will you be
removing your "Autocollimator" mask after tonight? You're not
fooling anyone here but your own silly self, ya' know.

For the rest of the happy group assembled, here is an example of how
"Art Kramer" formats his posts....

Subject: Little friend takes big brother home.
From: (Autocollimator)
Date: 10/29/03 6:48 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


Now here is an example of how "Autocollimator" formats his posts.....


Subject: Little friend takes big brother home.
From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 10/29/03 11:21 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


In addition to the formatting styles that are *exactly* the same,
interesting that Kramer and "Autocollimator" messages both
originate from an AOL account as well.

Below is Kramer (masquerading as "Autocollimator") on his
'been-there-done-that' high horse. Note the misspelled
words -- which of course is *classic* Art Kramer....

No a surety, not just a possibility. Have you ever gotten off the
ground in a miliatry aircraft? I think not.

Below is "Autocollimator" bashing Republicans. Kramer is also
a known Republican-basher...

At least the Republican party will. But be fair. They really need that
mney for more tax cuts for the rich.

"Autocollimator" (e.g: Kramer) denigrating Republicans again...

If we are in Rumsfeld's hands, God help us all.

And "Autocollimator" (e.g: Kramer) bashing Republicans again.......

Thousands flew in the air war in WW II. What the hell is the big deal
about old man Bush???

Now the examples below are REALLY pathetic. First, Kramer writes
a short story entitled "Little friend takes big brother home" then
"Autocollimator" gives thanks to "Art Kramer" for writing the story.
In other words, Kramer is saying "thank you" to -himself- (!!!)

Autocollimator:
Great story. Thanks for posting it. I envy you your combat
experience..Keep the war stories coming.

Kramer:
Thanks. I'll keep 'em coming.

And here's another nauseating and pathetic little lovefest that Kramer
is publically having with HIMSELF.....

Kramer:
I guess that it happened many times, but I saw it only once. It
is a sight that never can be forgotten.

Autocollimator:
Your vivid memory is our gain. Thanks again.

Halloween "tricks or treats" aside, you_are_one_sick_puppy, Kramer.
Seriously! Please get help.

Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat being there no
matter what. I look for your posts every time I log on. Keep 'em flying.

Since it's Halloween and all, just curious Art if you will you be
removing your "Autocollimator" mask after tonight?


Mike,
If I may offer why I don't think "Art" and "Auto" are not, one and the same,
First off, I'm a regular reader but not much of a participant. I enjoy
reading the different posts, offering many different veiwpoints and opinions.
"Art" has been posting here for some years now, although I don't agree with
him at times, I enjoy reading about his life and times at war.
Many WWII veterans are departing us, its not only important for US history
but World history to hear it first hand from someone who was there. I knew many
WWII veterans, most are departed, including dad and my uncle. But like most
WWII veterans, they never talked about it, most I heard was from mom, "daddy
seen alot of bad stuff", or yes or no answers from dad and uncle themselves.
Its only "after" its to late do you hear about what they did or what
happened.
How many times I picked up the paper only to read so and so passed away, and a
"oh! wow" I did'nt know he was a paratooper, Marine, gunner aboard the Gamblier
Bay, etc, etc.
Also, these are old men, technology is sometimes daunting to them. I remember
writing down specific instructions on how to turn on the computer, do this, do
that, just so they could download e-mails with pictures of there grandchildren.
Art is one of the very few, that not only talks about it, but maintains his
own webpage.
Art is extremely pround of what he has done, and rightfully so. And anybody
that has been apart of this newsgroup, has to admit that, lets face it, if you
don't agree with Art, things seem to turn south real quick. Art is very
opinionated, pretty much, that if you have'nt flown in WWII, the soldiers,
sailors, Marines, infantrymen, gunners, submariners, cooks, supply personnel,
etc, etc, etc, aren't worthy somehow.
But anyway, no big deal, we all have faults.
So!!, to offer my proof that Art and Auto are not the same, Auto replied:

Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat being there no
matter what. I look for your posts every time I log on. Keep 'em flying.


Mike, KEEP 'EM FLYING, is strictly and aircraft mechanics saying, no way in
God's green earth would Art ever stoop slow low as to quote the saying of a
lowlife, yellow, uneducated enlisted aircraft mechanics qoute or as Art calls
them Poogies or something like that.

(Longtailedlizard) wrote:

Mike,
If I may offer why I don't think "Art" and "Auto" are not, one and the same,
First off, I'm a regular reader but not much of a participant. I enjoy
reading the different posts, offering many different veiwpoints and opinions.
"Art" has been posting here for some years now, although I don't agree with
him at times, I enjoy reading about his life and times at war.
Many WWII veterans are departing us, its not only important for US history
but World history to hear it first hand from someone who was there. I knew many
WWII veterans, most are departed, including dad and my uncle. But like most
WWII veterans, they never talked about it, most I heard was from mom, "daddy
seen alot of bad stuff", or yes or no answers from dad and uncle themselves.
Its only "after" its to late do you hear about what they did or what
happened.
How many times I picked up the paper only to read so and so passed away, and a
"oh! wow" I did'nt know he was a paratooper, Marine, gunner aboard the Gamblier
Bay, etc, etc.
Also, these are old men, technology is sometimes daunting to them. I remember
writing down specific instructions on how to turn on the computer, do this, do
that, just so they could download e-mails with pictures of there grandchildren.
Art is one of the very few, that not only talks about it, but maintains his
own webpage.
Art is extremely pround of what he has done, and rightfully so. And anybody
that has been apart of this newsgroup, has to admit that, lets face it, if you
don't agree with Art, things seem to turn south real quick. Art is very
opinionated, pretty much, that if you have'nt flown in WWII, the soldiers,
sailors, Marines, infantrymen, gunners, submariners, cooks, supply personnel,
etc, etc, etc, aren't worthy somehow.
But anyway, no big deal, we all have faults.
So!!, to offer my proof that Art and Auto are not the same, Auto replied:

Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat being there no
matter what. I look for your posts every time I log on. Keep 'em flying.

Mike, KEEP 'EM FLYING, is strictly and aircraft mechanics saying, no way in
God's green earth would Art ever stoop slow low as to quote the saying of a
lowlife, yellow, uneducated enlisted aircraft mechanics qoute or as Art calls
them Poogies or something like that.

Great post Liz, much appreciated! This is the one and only RATIONAL
response I've read yet, however, perhaps we should give Kramer a bit
of credit where credit's due here. In other words, simply because he
used a mechanic's saying (e.g: "keep 'em flying") doesn't mean squat.
He may have utilized the saying just to help furthur disguise himself
precisely for the reasons you so astutely pointed out (e.g: make it
seem like "Autocollimator" is some "low life yellow, uneducated
enlisted aircraft mechanic" ain't him).

In article ,
Mike Marron writes:
(Longtailedlizard) wrote:

Mike,
If I may offer why I don't think "Art" and "Auto" are not, one and the same,
First off, I'm a regular reader but not much of a participant. I enjoy
reading the different posts, offering many different veiwpoints and opinions.
"Art" has been posting here for some years now, although I don't agree with
him at times, I enjoy reading about his life and times at war.
Many WWII veterans are departing us, its not only important for US history
but World history to hear it first hand from someone who was there. I knew many
WWII veterans, most are departed, including dad and my uncle. But like most
WWII veterans, they never talked about it, most I heard was from mom, "daddy
seen alot of bad stuff", or yes or no answers from dad and uncle themselves.
Its only "after" its to late do you hear about what they did or what
happened.
How many times I picked up the paper only to read so and so passed away, and a
"oh! wow" I did'nt know he was a paratooper, Marine, gunner aboard the Gamblier
Bay, etc, etc.
Also, these are old men, technology is sometimes daunting to them. I remember
writing down specific instructions on how to turn on the computer, do this, do
that, just so they could download e-mails with pictures of there grandchildren.
Art is one of the very few, that not only talks about it, but maintains his
own webpage.
Art is extremely pround of what he has done, and rightfully so. And anybody
that has been apart of this newsgroup, has to admit that, lets face it, if you
don't agree with Art, things seem to turn south real quick. Art is very
opinionated, pretty much, that if you have'nt flown in WWII, the soldiers,
sailors, Marines, infantrymen, gunners, submariners, cooks, supply personnel,
etc, etc, etc, aren't worthy somehow.
But anyway, no big deal, we all have faults.
So!!, to offer my proof that Art and Auto are not the same, Auto replied:

Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat being there no
matter what. I look for your posts every time I log on. Keep 'em flying.

Mike, KEEP 'EM FLYING, is strictly and aircraft mechanics saying, no way in
God's green earth would Art ever stoop slow low as to quote the saying of a
lowlife, yellow, uneducated enlisted aircraft mechanics qoute or as Art calls
them Poogies or something like that.

Great post Liz, much appreciated! This is the one and only RATIONAL
response I've read yet, however, perhaps we should give Kramer a bit
of credit where credit's due here. In other words, simply because he
used a mechanic's saying (e.g: "keep 'em flying") doesn't mean squat.
He may have utilized the saying just to help furthur disguise himself
precisely for the reasons you so astutely pointed out (e.g: make it
seem like "Autocollimator" is some "low life yellow, uneducated
enlisted aircraft mechanic" ain't him).

Mike - You're really getting more than a bit thin here.
Next thing you know, you'll be rattling a pair of Ball Bearings in
your hand, reliving the Cheese Incident, and proving, by Geometric
Logic, that the Messboys didn't eat the strawberries.

Are we ging to have to refer to you a "Old Yellowstain?"

Odd thread tie-in here - The Caine Mutiny Court Martial scenes had,
as one of the principal characters, a Pilot acting as a JAG Officer.
A story so twisted, it could only have been written by Art Kramer...
of Herman Wouk.
(Hmm. Maybe Art is actually Herman Wouk? We know he's not Joe Heller
- They've been seen in the same place at the same time.)

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
...
Great post Liz, much appreciated! This is the one and only RATIONAL
response I've read yet, however, perhaps we should give Kramer a bit
of credit where credit's due here. In other words, simply because he
used a mechanic's saying (e.g: "keep 'em flying") doesn't mean squat.
He may have utilized the saying just to help furthur disguise himself
precisely for the reasons you so astutely pointed out (e.g: make it
seem like "Autocollimator" is some "low life yellow, uneducated
enlisted aircraft mechanic" ain't him).

Umm, Mike, as far as I know, Art has never been accused of subtlety.

Since my name was dropped in Art's first post in this thread, I feel entitled to
chime in. I have waited a while to do so, reading the other posts with great
interest.

A lot of what I was going to say has already been expressed quite well by others.
Vlado and Dudley chimed in with the rest of the hand grenade squad ( very
entertaining! ) and others such as Gordon, Peter and the Lizard contributed in less
incendiary ways, with at least some attempt at an evenhanded appraisal.

Those familiar with my posting history these many years know that sometimes I stray
just a bit from a flat recitation of facts. For the purposes of this post,
however, I am restricting myself to a very low bull**** factor. ( Very difficult
for me!)

First, I want to state a few things in reference to a variety of things which have
come up.

I host and code Art's web site, but ALL the content is his. I correct typos from
the emails he sends me, but that's it. There is no money involved in any of this
for either of us. Also, Art is not really a particularly tech savvy guy.

All my contact with Art has been email, no phone calls, no face time, no faxes, and
just one snail mailed clipping. However, over several years, I have encountered
absolutely NO indication that he is not who he says he is. In addition to the
evidence available on the web site, I have encountered numerous other pieces of
evidence verifying his identity.

----------

The "Autocollimator" story:

I spent about half an hour this afternoon on Google, and emailed another "RAM
regular" to discuss the issue. I did NOT email Art himself. Autocollimator is a
real word, BTW.

In my opinion, there is a very good chance that Art either IS "Autocollimator" or
had a very direct influence in those posts. I will not detail my reasoning here,
but it involves NO "inside" information.

I really don't think it would be such a big deal if Art wanted to have a little
extra fun on the group, and created another persona to express some different
views. Let's face it, "Autocollimator" is hardly the worst offender we've seen
lately. I don't plan to spend any time worrying about it.


-------------

I don't really have anything to add to the "Good Art/Bad Art" controversy, others
have covered it quite well. Except for this post, I don't think I have ever
commented publicly on it, and I don't think I have any great insights. The
tradeoffs are obvious to any reasonable long term reader of RAM.

-------------

And now, of necessity, I must address the issue of Mr. Marron. Over the years, I
have watched many new posters earn universal derision and enmity on the group.
However, I can't recall anybody else who reached his current depths of disapproval
without benefit of outlandishly nonfactual statements. Mr. Marron is now in the
losers' league of Tarver, Mladen,.and the XXX999 kooks, sinking below the Arndt
level, without ever making a really silly claim ( by the loose standards of RAM ).

Mr. Marron has even posted valuable material at times. However, by the sheer force
of obnoxious personality, he has managed to irritate people even while making what
should have been a legitimate contribution. This happens to posters all the time,
of course ( including Art ). But Mr. Marron has raised this from an occasional
communication problem to a consistent barrage of offensive invective, untempered by
any real original contributions ( unless you want to count lyrical praise of his
"almost an airplane").

I suppose I am a bit naive, a bit of a romantic with regard to communities like
RAM. I have always felt that the raging battles we see would never happen if we
were sitting around a table with the benefit of tone of voice and facial
expressions to leaven the harsh typing of a newsgroup post. I certainly don't
think all opinions would coincide in such a venue. ( What would be the fun in
that? ) But all in all, I used to say I'd be glad to have a beer with any of the
non loon RAM regulars, regardless of how much I may disagree with them on issues.

Now, however, I have found an exception to that rule.


Bob McKellar

..