India is in the market for New Fighters. What would you buy????

Rob Arndt wrote:

On Nov 4, 5:53�pm, dumbstruck wrote:


On Nov 3, 3:24 am, Tiger wrote:



India's AF is looking to make a huge purchase & production deal. $10
Billion dollars for 126 aircraft. They are looking to replace their Mig
21's. There are about 6 ?Firms/ planes up for consideration.
Eruofighter Typhoon
Saab Gripen
Boeing's F-18
Lock Mart's F16
Mig's 29 & 35
Dassualt's Rafale & Mirage series


So if you had $10 Billion to spend? What would you buy for your force??
Keep in mind the needs of India, the potential foes & that any US plane
come with political strings attached (like Pakastians f-16 deal).


Rough field capability would be a plus; do the Saab and Mig offferings
still favor that? Eurofighter and Dassualt are probably very motivated
to negotiate price, but maybe Mig most of all... logical winner?

But I would expand the search box. On the more futuristic side,
consider unmanned hunter-killer drones like General Atomics MQ-9
Reaper, adding sidewinders. Using the price from Wikipedia, India
could afford 12000 of these instead of 126 of the above. Well, maybe
China or sombody could figure out how to jam UAV's.

My personal favorite would be a low tech option that takes advantage
of India's vast manpower. I'm thinking of a plywood overcast: 126000
rocket/cruise-missle carrying Mosquito's. Get the DeHavilland assembly
plans from the internet, and make it's plywood from recycled scrap
wood in a thousand village workshops. For engines, Russia must have
heaps of worn out Kuznetsov turboprops used on Tupolev Bear bombers -
those awesomely fast ones with counterrotating props might be rebuilt
cheaply. Quantity has a quality of it's own, and that is India's
forte.



Easiest answer is whatever meets India's needs in the region and not
what Russia, Europe, or the US think they need...

With 1.1 billion people, maybe they should emulate China and think
indigenous design, with a little help from their allies

In the 21st century there will be 5 powers: US, United Europe, China,
Russia, and India. China and India constitute 1/3rd of the entire
world population and are growing while the US, Europe, and Russia are
declining by birthrate. The West needs to start taking these nations
seriously.

Rob




Well part of my orignial post stated that the deal would include
provisions to domestically build.

"Eighteen of the fighters would be bought off the shelf by 2012 while
the remaining 108 planes would be manufactured under licence in India.

India would also hold the option of purchasing another 64 fighters from
the top bidder, Indian officials
said."- http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071102...LyZWTntzkE1vAI

On Nov 5, 5:17 pm, Tiger wrote:
Rob Arndt wrote:
On Nov 4, 5:53?pm, dumbstruck wrote:

On Nov 3, 3:24 am, Tiger wrote:

India's AF is looking to make a huge purchase & production deal. $10
Billion dollars for 126 aircraft. They are looking to replace their Mig
21's. There are about 6 ?Firms/ planes up for consideration.
Eruofighter Typhoon
Saab Gripen
Boeing's F-18
Lock Mart's F16
Mig's 29 & 35
Dassualt's Rafale & Mirage series

So if you had $10 Billion to spend? What would you buy for your force??
Keep in mind the needs of India, the potential foes & that any US plane
come with political strings attached (like Pakastians f-16 deal).

Rough field capability would be a plus; do the Saab and Mig offferings
still favor that? Eurofighter and Dassualt are probably very motivated
to negotiate price, but maybe Mig most of all... logical winner?

But I would expand the search box. On the more futuristic side,
consider unmanned hunter-killer drones like General Atomics MQ-9
Reaper, adding sidewinders. Using the price from Wikipedia, India
could afford 12000 of these instead of 126 of the above. Well, maybe
China or sombody could figure out how to jam UAV's.

My personal favorite would be a low tech option that takes advantage
of India's vast manpower. I'm thinking of a plywood overcast: 126000
rocket/cruise-missle carrying Mosquito's. Get the DeHavilland assembly
plans from the internet, and make it's plywood from recycled scrap
wood in a thousand village workshops. For engines, Russia must have
heaps of worn out Kuznetsov turboprops used on Tupolev Bear bombers -
those awesomely fast ones with counterrotating props might be rebuilt
cheaply. Quantity has a quality of it's own, and that is India's
forte.

Easiest answer is whatever meets India's needs in the region and not
what Russia, Europe, or the US think they need...

With 1.1 billion people, maybe they should emulate China and think
indigenous design, with a little help from their allies

In the 21st century there will be 5 powers: US, United Europe, China,
Russia, and India. China and India constitute 1/3rd of the entire
world population and are growing while the US, Europe, and Russia are
declining by birthrate. The West needs to start taking these nations
seriously.

Rob

Well part of my orignial post stated that the deal would include
provisions to domestically build.

"Eighteen of the fighters would be bought off the shelf by 2012 while
the remaining 108 planes would be manufactured under licence in India.

India would also hold the option of purchasing another 64 fighters from
the top bidder, Indian officials
said."-http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071102/bs_afp/indiausmilitaryweaponsavi...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



From www.janes.com

Indian air force chief warns of reliance on imports.
The competence of the Indian defence industry has been "dulled" by
"lack of competition and a readiness to import", India's Chief of the
Air Staff has warned. Delivering the inaugural address to the 2nd
International Conference on 'Energising Indian Aerospace Industry: New
Partnerships, New Opportunities', Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major
said private defence companies "must not be merely business partners
of foreign vendors".

And a side note - Thailand's purchase of 12 Grippen's is to go ahead
after the US State Department cleared export of US made components to
Tailand.

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 02:01:17 -0800, Rob Arndt
wrote:

Easiest answer is whatever meets India's needs in the region and not
what Russia, Europe, or the US think they need...

It won't be a US plane. The F-16s and F-18s are somewhat dated
designs that carry a high purchase cost and bring with them too much
political baggage. Should India not meet US expectations in certain
US geopolitical goals delivery and support is held up.


With 1.1 billion people, maybe they should emulate China and think
indigenous design, with a little help from their allies


From an interview with Singapore's Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew

This is the most important insight.

http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/articl...parentid=79541

Q: On India, there's been a lot of hype in America, in foreign affairs
publications and so on, about India becoming the next superpower. I
was in New Delhi about three months ago -- it seems to me India's got
a long way to go.

Lee: They are a different mix, never mind their political structures.
They are not one people. You can make a speech in Delhi; [Prime
Minister] Manmohan Singh can speak in Hindi and 30, 40 percent of the
country can understand him. He makes a speech in English and maybe 30
percent of the elite understand him.

In China, when a leader speaks, 90 percent will understand him. They
all speak one language, they are one people. In India, they have got
32 official languages and in fact, 300-plus different languages. You
look at Europe, 25 languages, 27 countries, how do you? The European
Parliament? Had we not moved into one language here in Singapore, we
would not have been able to govern this country.

On Nov 5, 3:53 am, dumbstruck wrote:
On Nov 3, 3:24 am, Tiger wrote:

India's AF is looking to make a huge purchase & production deal. $10
Billion dollars for 126 aircraft. They are looking to replace their Mig
21's. There are about 6 Firms/ planes up for consideration.
Eruofighter Typhoon
Saab Gripen
Boeing's F-18
Lock Mart's F16
Mig's 29 & 35
Dassualt's Rafale & Mirage series

So if you had $10 Billion to spend? What would you buy for your force??
Keep in mind the needs of India, the potential foes & that any US plane
come with political strings attached (like Pakastians f-16 deal).

Rough field capability would be a plus; do the Saab and Mig offferings
still favor that? Eurofighter and Dassualt are probably very motivated
to negotiate price, but maybe Mig most of all... logical winner?


Snip fantasy............

I'd say go with the SAAB. Avoid the political "strings attached" that
come with buying from "Uncle Sam" or from "Brother Russia".
The Grippen is a really good 5th generation multirole fighter, way
ahead the F16 and F18 are antique designs that are really at the end
of their useful life. The TCO is a lot lower too and so is ease of
maintenance.

Roger Conroy wrote:

On Nov. 5, 3:53 am, dumbstruck wrote:


On Nov. 3, 3:24 am, Tiger wrote:



India's AF is looking to make a huge purchase & production deal. $10
Billion dollars for 126 aircraft. They are looking to replace their Mig
21's. There are about 6 Firms/ planes up for consideration.
Eruofighter Typhoon
Saab Gripen
Boeing's F-18
Lock Mart's F16
Mig's 29 & 35
Dassualt's Rafale & Mirage series


So if you had $10 Billion to spend? What would you buy for your force??
Keep in mind the needs of India, the potential foes & that any US plane
come with political strings attached (like Pakistanis f-16 deal).


Rough field capability would be a plus; do the Saab and Mig offerings
still favor that? Eurofighter and Dassualt are probably very motivated
to negotiate price, but maybe Mig most of all... logical winner?




Snip fantasy............

I'd say go with the SAAB. Avoid the political "strings attached" that
come with buying from "Uncle Sam" or from "Brother Russia".
The Grippen is a really good 5th generation multirole fighter, way
ahead the F16 and F18 are antique designs that are really at the end
of their useful life. The TCO is a lot lower too and so is ease of
maintenance.




I'm a Saab fan as well. However...... Just to throw another curve into
the job requirements. India's Navy is Buying/ building new Ski jump
equipped carriers to replace the ex-HMSHermes. They are slated to use
Mig 29-K Naval versions of the MIG. The Built in naval capability of
the Raffale and small size make it a contender as well. France also
lacks the political strings.

In article . com, Roger
Conroy wrote:

On Nov 5, 3:53 am, dumbstruck wrote:
On Nov 3, 3:24 am, Tiger wrote:

India's AF is looking to make a huge purchase & production deal. $10
Billion dollars for 126 aircraft. They are looking to replace their Mig
21's. There are about 6 Firms/ planes up for consideration.
Eruofighter Typhoon
Saab Gripen
Boeing's F-18
Lock Mart's F16
Mig's 29 & 35
Dassualt's Rafale & Mirage series

So if you had $10 Billion to spend? What would you buy for your force??
Keep in mind the needs of India, the potential foes & that any US plane
come with political strings attached (like Pakastians f-16 deal).

Rough field capability would be a plus; do the Saab and Mig offferings
still favor that? Eurofighter and Dassualt are probably very motivated
to negotiate price, but maybe Mig most of all... logical winner?


Snip fantasy............

I'd say go with the SAAB. Avoid the political "strings attached" that
come with buying from "Uncle Sam" or from "Brother Russia".
The Grippen is a really good 5th generation multirole fighter, way
ahead the F16 and F18 are antique designs that are really at the end
of their useful life. The TCO is a lot lower too and so is ease of
maintenance.

Fantasy indeed if you think the F/A-18E/F is an antique design.
What on the list is newer?

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

On Nov 5, 11:25 pm, (Harry Andreas) wrote:
In article . com, Roger





Conroy wrote:
On Nov 5, 3:53 am, dumbstruck wrote:
On Nov 3, 3:24 am, Tiger wrote:

India's AF is looking to make a huge purchase & production deal. $10
Billion dollars for 126 aircraft. They are looking to replace their Mig
21's. There are about 6 Firms/ planes up for consideration.
Eruofighter Typhoon
Saab Gripen
Boeing's F-18
Lock Mart's F16
Mig's 29 & 35
Dassualt's Rafale & Mirage series

So if you had $10 Billion to spend? What would you buy for your force??
Keep in mind the needs of India, the potential foes & that any US plane
come with political strings attached (like Pakastians f-16 deal).

Rough field capability would be a plus; do the Saab and Mig offferings
still favor that? Eurofighter and Dassualt are probably very motivated
to negotiate price, but maybe Mig most of all... logical winner?

Snip fantasy............

I'd say go with the SAAB. Avoid the political "strings attached" that
come with buying from "Uncle Sam" or from "Brother Russia".
The Grippen is a really good 5th generation multirole fighter, way
ahead the F16 and F18 are antique designs that are really at the end
of their useful life. The TCO is a lot lower too and so is ease of
maintenance.

Fantasy indeed if you think the F/A-18E/F is an antique design.
What on the list is newer?

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The FA-18E/F is just the latest "upgrade" of a decades old design.
Sure it has all he latest bells and whistles but the basic airframe is
last weeks news!
Everything on the list is newer - except for (drum roll ...the
envelope please...) the F16!
The fundamental problem the US has is that their industry is so
heavily invested in the F22 and F35 that they have neglected the
market segment now served by the Grippen, Rafale, Typhoon, etc.
All they can offer are aircraft that were designed before their pilots
were even born!
The only customers they get are countries that already operate older
model F16s and F18s, and can't afford anything better.

On Nov 6, 2:36 am, Roger Conroy wrote:
On Nov 5, 11:25 pm, (Harry Andreas) wrote:





In article . com, Roger

Conroy wrote:
On Nov 5, 3:53 am, dumbstruck wrote:
On Nov 3, 3:24 am, Tiger wrote:

India's AF is looking to make a huge purchase & production deal. $10
Billion dollars for 126 aircraft. They are looking to replace their Mig
21's. There are about 6 Firms/ planes up for consideration.
Eruofighter Typhoon
Saab Gripen
Boeing's F-18
Lock Mart's F16
Mig's 29 & 35
Dassualt's Rafale & Mirage series

So if you had $10 Billion to spend? What would you buy for your force??
Keep in mind the needs of India, the potential foes & that any US plane
come with political strings attached (like Pakastians f-16 deal).

Rough field capability would be a plus; do the Saab and Mig offferings
still favor that? Eurofighter and Dassualt are probably very motivated
to negotiate price, but maybe Mig most of all... logical winner?

Snip fantasy............

I'd say go with the SAAB. Avoid the political "strings attached" that
come with buying from "Uncle Sam" or from "Brother Russia".
The Grippen is a really good 5th generation multirole fighter, way
ahead the F16 and F18 are antique designs that are really at the end
of their useful life. The TCO is a lot lower too and so is ease of
maintenance.

Fantasy indeed if you think the F/A-18E/F is an antique design.
What on the list is newer?

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The FA-18E/F is just the latest "upgrade" of a decades old design.
Sure it has all he latest bells and whistles but the basic airframe is
last weeks news!
Everything on the list is newer - except for (drum roll ...the
envelope please...) the F16!
The fundamental problem the US has is that their industry is so
heavily invested in the F22 and F35 that they have neglected the
market segment now served by the Grippen, Rafale, Typhoon, etc.

Why is that a fundamental problem?

All they can offer are aircraft that were designed before their pilots
were even born!
The only customers they get are countries that already operate older
model F16s and F18s, and can't afford anything better.

wrote:
On Nov 6, 2:36 am, Roger Conroy wrote:
On Nov 5, 11:25 pm, (Harry Andreas) wrote:





In article . com, Roger
Conroy wrote:
On Nov 5, 3:53 am, dumbstruck wrote:
On Nov 3, 3:24 am, Tiger wrote:
India's AF is looking to make a huge purchase & production deal. $10
Billion dollars for 126 aircraft. They are looking to replace their Mig
21's. There are about 6 Firms/ planes up for consideration.
Eruofighter Typhoon
Saab Gripen
Boeing's F-18
Lock Mart's F16
Mig's 29 & 35
Dassualt's Rafale & Mirage series
So if you had $10 Billion to spend? What would you buy for your force??
Keep in mind the needs of India, the potential foes & that any US plane
come with political strings attached (like Pakastians f-16 deal).
Rough field capability would be a plus; do the Saab and Mig offferings
still favor that? Eurofighter and Dassualt are probably very motivated
to negotiate price, but maybe Mig most of all... logical winner?
Snip fantasy............
I'd say go with the SAAB. Avoid the political "strings attached" that
come with buying from "Uncle Sam" or from "Brother Russia".
The Grippen is a really good 5th generation multirole fighter, way
ahead the F16 and F18 are antique designs that are really at the end
of their useful life. The TCO is a lot lower too and so is ease of
maintenance.
Fantasy indeed if you think the F/A-18E/F is an antique design.
What on the list is newer?
--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
The FA-18E/F is just the latest "upgrade" of a decades old design.
Sure it has all he latest bells and whistles but the basic airframe is
last weeks news!
Everything on the list is newer - except for (drum roll ...the
envelope please...) the F16!
The fundamental problem the US has is that their industry is so
heavily invested in the F22 and F35 that they have neglected the
market segment now served by the Grippen, Rafale, Typhoon, etc.

Why is that a fundamental problem?

They have ignored a large and growing market segment. No one actually
needs the top line fighters, but most countries do need serviceable and
adequate multi-role defense aircraft.

Dan

In article om, Roger
Conroy wrote:

On Nov 5, 11:25 pm, (Harry Andreas) wrote:
In article . com, Roger
Conroy wrote:
India's AF is looking to make a huge purchase & production deal. $10
Billion dollars for 126 aircraft. They are looking to replace
their Mig
21's. There are about 6 Firms/ planes up for consideration.
Eruofighter Typhoon
Saab Gripen
Boeing's F-18
Lock Mart's F16
Mig's 29 & 35
Dassualt's Rafale & Mirage series

So if you had $10 Billion to spend? What would you buy for your
force??
Keep in mind the needs of India, the potential foes & that any
US plane
come with political strings attached (like Pakastians f-16 deal).

Rough field capability would be a plus; do the Saab and Mig offferings
still favor that? Eurofighter and Dassualt are probably very motivated
to negotiate price, but maybe Mig most of all... logical winner?

Snip fantasy............

I'd say go with the SAAB. Avoid the political "strings attached" that
come with buying from "Uncle Sam" or from "Brother Russia".
The Grippen is a really good 5th generation multirole fighter, way
ahead the F16 and F18 are antique designs that are really at the end
of their useful life. The TCO is a lot lower too and so is ease of
maintenance.

Fantasy indeed if you think the F/A-18E/F is an antique design.
What on the list is newer?

The FA-18E/F is just the latest "upgrade" of a decades old design.
Sure it has all he latest bells and whistles but the basic airframe is
last weeks news!

I think you don't have the faintest clue as to the extent of the F/A-18
redesign, and the aerodynamic and structural changes that went
into it. By the way, basic airframing is not that big a deal. Stealth
aspects aside, most airframes are pretty similar design.
It is actually the so-called bells and whistles that are the discriminators
in selling the aircraft.

Everything on the list is newer - except for (drum roll ...the
envelope please...) the F16!
The fundamental problem the US has is that their industry is so
heavily invested in the F22 and F35 that they have neglected the
market segment now served by the Grippen, Rafale, Typhoon, etc.
All they can offer are aircraft that were designed before their pilots
were even born!
The only customers they get are countries that already operate older
model F16s and F18s, and can't afford anything better.

Like Korea, Singapore, Australia, etc

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur