9-11 Response, was F-15 grounding

schrieb:

What makes you think there is anything special about Germany?

true.

Soviet Bloc aircraft routinely played the game with most of Western
Europe as well as Asia.

that leaves the question open: did the other side (NATO, USA) play the
same game, too?

#m
--
I am not a terrorist http://www.casualdisobedience.com/

Martin Hotze wrote in news:fli28s$t4a$1
@kirk.hotze.com:

schrieb:

What makes you think there is anything special about Germany?

true.

Soviet Bloc aircraft routinely played the game with most of Western
Europe as well as Asia.

that leaves the question open: did the other side (NATO, USA) play the
same game, too?

#m

From the beginning and even more so. Obviously the U2 flights, but as far
back as about 47 they were probing russias defences. They lost a lot of
airplanes, too.


Bertie

Jay Honeck wrote in news:705723df-b4f1-45d7-ac21-
:

3. Did word of the Soviet incursions into German air space ever leak
out at the time? *I don't remember reading anything about this, back
then -- and you'd think it would have been big news.

Sigh, there were Soviet incursions into just about every part of
European airspace, Asian airspace, and American airspace.

They would turn around as soon as someone came out to greet them.

It was all a game and both sides played.

There were occasional pictures of Bear crews waving to the US fighters
published in the military oriented aviation mags; it was no secret.

Sure, those intercepts were all over the periodicals at the time --
but they were usually up near Alaska, or off the coast near Cuba.
Never, to my recollection, did we hear about any along the highly
sensitive, highly defended East/West German border -- as the OP
discusses.

That would have been awfully big news, methinks.
--

Well, judging from your obvious lack of education on just about everythng,
you might have missed it since you obviously don't read anyhting more
educational than the back of your rice crispies box in the morning.


Bertie

Soviet Bloc aircraft routinely played the game with most of Western
Europe as well as Asia.

that leaves the question open: did the other side (NATO, USA) play the
same game, too?

U2, Cuban Missile Crisis

Big snip of scary stuff

And my kids wonder why we were taught to prepare for nuclear war when
I was growing up.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote in news:95cf5955-5515-40c2-b450-
:

Soviet Bloc aircraft routinely played the game with most of Western
Europe as well as Asia.

that leaves the question open: did the other side (NATO, USA) play the
same game, too?

U2, Cuban Missile Crisis

Big snip of scary stuff

And my kids wonder why we were taught to prepare for nuclear war when
I was growing up.


Because yor fjukkwit friends built loads of them and pointed ( and used)
them on other people. .


Bertie

Martin Hotze wrote:
schrieb:

What makes you think there is anything special about Germany?

true.

Soviet Bloc aircraft routinely played the game with most of Western
Europe as well as Asia.

that leaves the question open: did the other side (NATO, USA) play the
same game, too?

Yes, but a bit more judiciously as the Soviet Bloc had a tendency to
shoot when they thought they could.

I don't recall any incident where the West shot down a Soviet Bloc
aircraft even when "legally" allowed.

I do recall many incidents where the Soviet Bloc shot down Western
aircraft, some of dubious "legality" such as the EC-121 shot down
over the Sea of Japan in the late 60's.

And the game was also played by boats in some places.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Jan 1, 2:58*pm, Matt Whiting wrote:
wrote:
On *1-Jan-2008, Matt Whiting wrote:

Your post covered a lot of ground, but your point above is very
important and not understood by Jay and others lacking knowledge of
military tactics and capability. *It is very important to not be tricked
into showing what your true capabilities are and letting your enemies
think you have much less capability than you have is a very smart
tactic. *The one exception was during the cold war when the MAD strategy
required showing a fair bit of your capability to your enemy.

Launching more aircraft than required for the threat at hand serves no
purpose other than to convey a lot of information about your capability..
* I still believe based on what I know from both public and private
sources, the the main lag on 9/11 was a complete lack of any expectation
about an attack of this sort and the fact that the military really
wasn't prepared for it from a decision-making perspective more so than a
fundamental capability basis.

I agree with you Matt, except for one point. I am completely sure that the
Soviets knew exactly how many jets were up on alert status at each of the
NATO bases, and could probably even give you the tail numbers of the jets on
alert on any given day. Our OPSEC (Operations Security) left a lot to be
desired. Any time a ZULU jet had a problem, Job Control radioed the fact
along with the tail number of the afflicted jet to us in our AMU so we could
dispatch someone over to fix it. And when the jet was repaired, the fact was
radioed to Job Control as well. When a scheduled tradeout of tail numbers
was to be done, that info was also talked about openly on our radio net. The
only thing I can figure is that USAFE and NATO were quite convinced the
Warsaw Pact would never actually attack us, contrary to the public posturing
put forth about the "imminent Soviet Threat." * I wonder if the whole
propaganda effort was just in order to keep their funding up, and continues
to this day supported by the paranoids in our government. I do know I came
away from that experience and several other experiences during my 10 years
Active Duty thinking that what we refer to as "Hawks" in our government
really don't know what they are talking about. To me they are just paranoid
beyond all reason. *Remember the "Domino Theory" and how it was so important
to stop the Communists in Vietnam to prevent the global spread of Communism?
*Well, the Communists won in Vietnam, and the dominos didn't fall. And all
the bluster about Saddam and Iraq from the Bush Administration leading up to
the invasion was simply ridiculous, and it's a shame that so many of our
people were paranoid enough to have bought into it. I believe it's our duty
to be skeptical of our government's claims of threats, they've proven
themselves not trustworthy in my view.
Scott Wilson

Yes, certainly poor operational practice and meddling politics can muck
up the best of systems.

Matt- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

1.NORAD was staging exercises on 9/11. When informed of the Boston
hijackings a USAF officer replied on the radio "Cool".

2. Egypt Air 990 was piloted by an unauthorized
person...bucket..Nantucket.. in 1999. 9/11 wasn't the first case of
"unauthorized" pilots.

And the game was also played by boats in some places.

like in this story, involing a rather big boat (and even a marginal mention
of aircraft, hence on topic :-)):

enjoy,
Friedrich

********************************************
SEA STORY - A true one experienced by Frenchy Corbeille USN(Ret)

It was Sunday afternoon, early in the month of August, 1968 when USS
Forrestal (CVA-59) was making her way through the Western
Mediterranean during the first days of a 7-month cruise. I was Officer
of the Deck (OOD) on the 1200 - 1600 bridge watch, there were no
ship's evolutions ongoing, and things looked like a ho-hum Sunday
afternoon at sea.

We were hosting the Prospective Commanding Officer (PCO) of USS
Independence and our CO had gone with him to the Captain's In-Port
Cabin. Prior to departing the bridge, the CO and I had conversed
briefly and one of the subjects breeched was that we had been in the
Mediterranean for more than a week now and we had not yet seen one of
those pesky Russian trawlers. Our Navy had come to hope not to see one
because they had a way of getting in the way whenever we had things to
do, such as flight operations, or underway replenishment. This lack of
encounter was about to change.

At about 1500 I called the CO to advise him that we had picked up an
unidentified surface contact on radar, range 22,000 yards (11 nautical
miles). It appeared to be on our reciprocal course at a speed of 8
knots and in the absence of any changes, the closest point of approach
(CPA) would be 6,000 yards on our port beam.

"Very Well" and the customary "Thanks, Frenchy" constituted the CO's
response.

I had no more than hung up the phone when the contact changed course.
I could identify 2 sticks (masts) over the horizon, looking through
the 7X50 OOD standard equipment Bausch & Lomb's, but could make out
nothing of the vessel. However, the two sticks bore a strong
resemblance to the pictures we had on the bridge of known trawlers
that had frequented these waters.

I called the Captain back to advise him that the unidentified contact
had indeed made a 90-degree course change, was still doing 8 knots,
and his present course/speed would take him across our bow at 6,000
yards (3 miles). We were doing 20 knots, on some kind of a sustained
speed exercise for the engineers, and preferred to alter neither
course nor speed unless absolutely necessary. I advised the Captain
of my suspicions concerning the vessel's identity and advised him that
I had ordered the Intelligence Sighting Team to the bridge.

It being a Sunday stand down with little to occupy the idle time, we
soon had the entire Intelligence staff scattered about on the bridge
and the signal bridge, with a few photo types thrown in. The contact
was still hull-down over the horizon but the visible masts more and
more took on the resemblance of our Russian trawler pictures. I also
advised the Captain that, in accordance with the International Rules
of the Road, Forrestal was the privileged vessel; the vessel crossing
our bow was coming from our port side and was therefore the burdened
vessel. In accordance with the Rules, the privileged vessel is
REQUIRED to maintain course and speed. The burdened vessel is
responsible for maneuvering as necessary to avoid collision.

The Captain said "Very Well, call me back if he does anything funny,
and let me know what the intelligence folks come up with."

Only moments later I was back on the phone, advising the Captain that
we had positive ID on a Russian ELINT (Electronics Intelligence)
trawler, and he had indeed done something funny. He had reached our
intended track at a range of 6,000 yards, and had then executed
another 90-degree turn to port; he was now on the same course as
Forrestal, dead ahead, at speed 8 knots. So we had a 12-kt speed
advantage, and 3 miles to contact. That meant that in 15 minutes one
or the other of us must turn or he, the Russian trawler, would get run
over.

I advised the Captain that in accordance with the International Rules,
he was burdened when he came in from our port bow. Now that we are on
a course to overtake him, he would like us to believe that Forrestal,
as the overtaking vessel, is the newly ordained BURDENED vessel. I
reminded the Captain of another clause in the rules that says once a
vessel is burdened, it may not maneuver to shift the burden to the
other vessel. He stays burdened until danger of collision is past.

The Captain agreed with my assessment and asked what I recommended we
do. I recommended we hold course and speed until In Extremis that
sketchy point at which somebody has to do something or there's going
to be a crunch, then order up All Back Emergency Full, Right Full
Rudder, and we would miss him. I had identified that point as 400
yards astern but threw in 100 yards for cushion.

The Captain once more came back with his cheerful "Very Well" and
added, "If he's still there at 1,000 yards, give me a call back"

"AYE AYE, Sir!"

Now we've eaten up about 1/3 of our cushion and the squawk box came to
life.

"Bridge, Flag Bridge . When does Forrestal intend to maneuver to avoid
that privileged vessel ahead?"

There was no race by other members of the bridge team to answer that
one, so I got it myself.

"Flag Bridge, Bridge -This is the Officer of the Deck speaking. That
vessel ahead is not privileged he approached from our port side,
therefore is the burdened vessel, and he can no longer maneuver to
shift his burden to Forrestal.

" Flag Bridge Aye!"

I could envision some hot shot flag watch officer digging the
Admiral's shoe out of his ass, and smiled inwardly. I didn't hear the
Admiral's voice, but I knew he was watching from his favorite perch.

Somewhere about then I had the Signal Gang close up flag "Uniform" on
both halyards U is the international signal that says"You are standing
into danger."

Then our Navigator got into it. First he told me I was going to have
to turn the ship and he was working on our new course. Since he was a
commander and I was a lieutenant, I explained as tactfully as I could
that we were not going to turn, leastways not to a pre-planned course.
We were the privileged vessel, and as such, were REQUIRED to hold
course and speed.

Next thing I heard from him was, Mr. Corbeille, I'm ordering you to
turn this ship.

With no attempt at tact, I advised him, Commander, you cannot order me
to turn this ship. If you believe the ship to be sufficiently
endangered, you, as Navigator, can summarily relieve me as OOD. Then
you can turn left, turn right, or come dead in the water. But you
cannot order me to turn. Do you want to relieve me?

Rather truculently, he then asked if the Captain knew about all this.
I told him yes indeed, and at contact range of 1,000 yards, I was to
notify the Captain again.

You better call him again right now!

No Sir, we still have a few hundred yards to go.

At this stage, I don't recall the exact time, the bridge relief crew
was coming on deck, but no one was ready to be relieved. I spied my
relief OOD waiting in the wings and he wanted nothing more than to
stay out of the way.

Admittedly, I got a bit nervous, and I called the Captain back when
the trawler was 1,100 yards ahead. His only response was, I'm on my
way up. He arrived momentarily with the PCO of Independence following
in his wake. He hopped up in his chair and said, Boy, he is pretty
close, isn't he? Then he asked, And when do you plan to make your
big move? I told him that if it closes to 500 yards, we can order up
All Back Emergency Full, Right Full Rudder, and we will miss him.

He asked: "Is that what the book says?"

I told him, "No Sir, The book says 400 yards, but I was leaving in a
little cushion."

He said, "We need only to maneuver in extremis to MINIMIZE DAMAGE."

That is a slight departure from international rules, but was our
standing order, arrived at specifically to contend with harassment
vessels. This is kind of a delicate point here because International
Rules of the Road says the privileged vessel must maneuver when in
extremis to avoid collision. The USSR ( Soviet Union ) was not
signatory to the International Rules of the Road, therefore her
vessels were not bound by them. It must be pointed out that Russian
ships, merchantmen and men-of-war alike, followed the international
rules of the road anyway, and knew them well enough to play chicken
with U.S. ships, mostly to our embarrassment. That was a game that our
Navy had long since tired of, hence the new guidance to maneuver only
in extremis to minimize damage.

Naturally, it behooved one to be absolutely certain that he was
absolutely right, if he were going to take a Navy man-of-war down to
the wire in a potential collision situation. I'm sure there are
readers who have more background concerning our maneuvering
instructions, but we believed we understood them perfectly. I still
believe that we did.

Having thus indicated his intentions, the Captain then asked, So how
close can we take her? I told him 400 yards would provide a grazing
situation, and then ordered the engine room to stand by for Emergency
Backing Bells.

We were still closing and had reached the 500-yard mark when the
trawler put in left full rudder. His rudder was not the size of a barn
door it had to have looked like the side of the barn itself! That guy
turned 90 degrees left in a heartbeat! We never flinched, never
wavered, and the trawler passed close aboard to port so close, if
fact, that the hull was not visible alongside our flight deck. All
that was visible from the vantage point of our bridge were the two
masts as they went rapidly down our port beam. Then we launched a
helo for some photo work and a big sigh of relief went up from the
bridge.

The Navigator started lobbying for us to file a harassment report, but
since we had altered neither course nor speed to accommodate the
trawler, it was hard to make a case for harassment. I wanted to make
out a harassment report on the Navigator but the CO calmed me down on
that score. The Prospective Commanding Officer (PCO) of Independence ,
bless his soul, took in the whole affair after arriving on the bridge
with our Captain, and never interjected one word. When it was all
over, he moved directly in front of me and said, loud enough for
almost everybody on the bridge to hear,No one could have done better.
Our CO joined right in and said Frenchy, you handled that perfectly.

At that point I realized I wasn't going to be a lieutenant forever, my
advice to the Captain had been sound, and I knew our Captain
appreciated it. My breathing gradually returned to normal.

For his part, Captain Hill, for that, as I recall, was his name, went
on to become CO USS Independence. He assumed command while anchored
in some Sicilian Bay , and when Independence stood out to sea under
new management, there was a Russian ELINT trawler, just outside
territorial waters, making slight way on Independence 's intended
track. A friend serving on that fine vessel told me that the new CO's
order to CIC was Combat, give me a collision course on that trawler at
30 knots! I heard the same refrain from several other people and I
believe it to be what happened.

For our part, we spent the remainder of our cruise unhampered in any
way by any Russian flagged ship. We continued to see an occasional
trawler, but when we came into the wind to launch and recover
aircraft, they vanished as if by magic. The word seemed to have leaked
out that this carrier has an attitude problem he'll run right over
you! And the Chief Engineer was happy because he got his
uninterrupted 4-hour sustained speed run at 20 knots.

Life was not the same for me after that. Our Captain made me Command
Duty Officer Underway. I was already the General Quarters OOD and Sea
and Anchor Detail OOD, so I wasn't sure what this new designation
would lead to. I soon learned that I was to be on the bridge whenever
Forrestal was in formation with other major combatants, (destroyers
didn't count, but cruisers did), and that I was to provide training to
all prospective Command Duty Officers. Anytime there was underway
replenishment, there was a formation, so I got to spend a lot of
valuable time on the bridge, learning all I could absorb. Our great
Captain, nameless up to now, was Robert Bemus Baldwin, born in
Bismarck , North Dakota . He was promoted to RADM upon leaving
Forrestal, and the last time I spoke with him he was Vice Admiral
Baldwin, COMNAVAIRPAC. I believe he lives in or near San Diego , and
remains the most admired man of my 30-plus year Navy career.

CAPT R. CLAUDE CORBEILLE, USN (RET) Castle Rock, WA

"Friedrich Ostertag" wrote

Snipped a great
********************************************
SEA STORY - A true one experienced by Frenchy Corbeille USN(Ret)
*********************************************
Thanks for taking the time to put that in print.

Although it is off topic, it deserves a place in any forum, IMHO.
--
Jim in NC