Expanded Glider Budget - Choices?

noel.wade wrote:
Hi All,

Back at the beginning of the year, I anticipated being able to upgrade
my glider. I bought my Russia AC-4a in 2007 on a very limited budget
and have thoroughly enjoyed its sprightly handling, easy rigging, and
climb capability. However, a big jump in my position at work has
given the the means to afford a better glider. Since my job also
means I may fly less often, I want a ship that I can stretch out with
more on longer glides (here in Seattle we get a lot of days with
3,000' - 4,000' cloudbases and only 2 - 3 knots of lift. I'm thinking
that 38:1 *measured* is the minimal L/D I'll be interested in).

Initially I was thinking I'd have a $25k - $30k limit and probably try
something with flaps (a la LS-3, Mini-Nimbus, Mosquito, DG-200, etc).
There was a long thread here where people provided some great advice.

Recently its begun looking like I may actually be able to afford a
$35k - $40k glider. This price-range opens up a few new doors
(ASW-20, perhaps a DG-202 or maybe DG-300, LS-4 mayyyybe, Pegasus, or
others?)... I was wondering if folks would be willing to tell me
their pick, and state why.

Priorities: I am interested in good ergonomics (the Apises and
DG-300's at our airfield make me envious), good/responsive handling,
good performance in weak weather, good visibility (one piece canopy),
and easy rigging (automatic hookups preferred - for safety as well as
rigging convenience).

Obviously PU or good Gel-Coat and a good trailer are important; but
what I'm after here are the inherent traits of the glider model you
suggest.

Thanks a bunch in advance!


Ventus b *used* to be in your price range, especially if the panel is dated.
Great landing characteristics, long gliding legs, light(er) all carbon
wings, easy rigging, and all auto control connections. Most people
describe the cockpit as roomy. At 5'7" I'm not a good judge though.

Shawn

On Mar 27, 5:00*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
Hi All,

Back at the beginning of the year, I anticipated being able to upgrade
my glider. *I bought my Russia AC-4a in 2007 on a very limited budget
and have thoroughly enjoyed its sprightly handling, easy rigging, and
climb capability. *However, a big jump in my position at work has
given the the means to afford a better glider. *Since my job also
means I may fly less often, I want a ship that I can stretch out with
more on longer glides (here in Seattle we get a lot of days with
3,000' - 4,000' cloudbases and only 2 - 3 knots of lift. *I'm thinking
that 38:1 *measured* is the minimal L/D I'll be interested in).

Initially I was thinking I'd have a $25k - $30k limit and probably try
something with flaps (a la LS-3, Mini-Nimbus, Mosquito, DG-200, etc).
There was a long thread here where people provided some great advice.

Recently its begun looking like I may actually be able to afford a
$35k - $40k glider. *This price-range opens up a few new doors
(ASW-20, perhaps a DG-202 or maybe DG-300, LS-4 mayyyybe, Pegasus, or
others?)... *I was wondering if folks would be willing to tell me
their pick, and state why.

Priorities: *I am interested in good ergonomics (the Apises and
DG-300's at our airfield make me envious), good/responsive handling,
good performance in weak weather, good visibility (one piece canopy),
and easy rigging (automatic hookups preferred - for safety as well as
rigging convenience).

Obviously PU or good Gel-Coat and a good trailer are important; but
what I'm after here are the inherent traits of the glider model you
suggest.

Thanks a bunch in advance!

--Noel

Most of the gliders you mentioned in your higher price range ($35K-
$40K) are available in your previous price range ($25K-$30K), at least
in the US. Pegasus for even less.

Ramy

On Mar 28, 11:54 am, Ramy wrote:
Most of the gliders you mentioned in your higher price range ($35K-
$40K) are available in your previous price range ($25K-$30K), at least
in the US. Pegasus for even less.

Ramy

Ramy -

Even though metal and old glass ships have been losing value, prices
on 80's glass has been holding steady or going up. I blame it on the
Euro-Dollar disparity and the widening gap between the cost of used
vs. new gliders (encouraging more folks to stick with 80's and 90's
glass).

I know of 1 DG-300 in so-so condition that sold for just over $30k
recently. High-end DG-300's and 303's have been selling quite rapidly
at $50k - $60k. I don't know of ANY ASW-20's that have sold for under
$30k recently.

But having said that, your point is well taken. I have often debated
whether the minor performance differences between a Mosquito and an
ASW-20 / LS-6 / DG-300 are worth the extra cost (especially since I
fly in such weak conditions). Wouldn't I be better with an older ship
and use the "extra" money to improve it? The thing is, those older
ships leave more to be desired in terms of ergonomics, rigging, and
resale value. And I've decided that those traits ARE worth some
money. How much - well that's a matter of opinion...

--Noel

Wings and wheels has a 19m Kestrel on it for a lot less than this.
Things against it.
Detachable canopy with that hoop in your field of view.
The weight of the wings - you really know who your friends are when you rig a
T59 Kestrel.
19m Wingspan makes for more ground handling effort and concentration than a 15m
ship.
Not competitive in any class - it is too much wing to be in 18m, and too little
to win in open.
Not exactly nimble.

Things going for it.
Delightful handling.
Looong legs - beats a Ventus on performance.
Landing flap gives very steep and slow approaches, nice and safe.
Big cockpit.
Very good value for money.

So - If what you want to do is fly XC - it might be an idea. Lots of performance
for little money means you can spend more on good instruments, and aerotow.

Just my 2c.

You will probably like whatever you buy - it is human nature. I would just
suggest that you keep a reserve of money available to invest in instruments and
developmental flying - like a club/sports class contest or two. My old std
Cirrus is still teaching me things after 5 years. Though the Kestrel is
introducing me to the dark side of performance enhancing stuff like span, and
flaps...


noel.wade wrote:
On Mar 28, 11:54 am, Ramy wrote:
Most of the gliders you mentioned in your higher price range ($35K-
$40K) are available in your previous price range ($25K-$30K), at least
in the US. Pegasus for even less.

Ramy

Ramy -

Even though metal and old glass ships have been losing value, prices
on 80's glass has been holding steady or going up. I blame it on the
Euro-Dollar disparity and the widening gap between the cost of used
vs. new gliders (encouraging more folks to stick with 80's and 90's
glass).

I know of 1 DG-300 in so-so condition that sold for just over $30k
recently. High-end DG-300's and 303's have been selling quite rapidly
at $50k - $60k. I don't know of ANY ASW-20's that have sold for under
$30k recently.

But having said that, your point is well taken. I have often debated
whether the minor performance differences between a Mosquito and an
ASW-20 / LS-6 / DG-300 are worth the extra cost (especially since I
fly in such weak conditions). Wouldn't I be better with an older ship
and use the "extra" money to improve it? The thing is, those older
ships leave more to be desired in terms of ergonomics, rigging, and
resale value. And I've decided that those traits ARE worth some
money. How much - well that's a matter of opinion...

--Noel

On Mar 28, 1:43*pm, Bruce wrote:
Wings and wheels has a 19m Kestrel on it for a lot less than this.

So - If what you want to do is fly XC - it might be an idea. Lots of performance
for little money means you can spend more on good instruments, and aerotow..

Just my 2c.


Bruce -

Thanks for the info. I've looked at the Kestrels a few times; but
have decided against anything over 15m span (unless the tips are
detachable and it can also be flown in 15m configuration). We've got
some small land-out areas and narrow runways in certain places, and I
wouldn't feel comfortable with an 18m wing (or bigger) in those
situations.

Also - my Russia has a 2-piece canopy. I don't hate it, but since I
operate out of a busy airport and I fly in amazingly beautiful
mountains, I really want a 1-piece canopy. Some people want a certain
wing-shape or fuselage shape - me I want a single-piece canopy. ;-)

Finally - my Russia has spoiled me. I can rig single-handed with
nothing but a blanket and a small wooden stool - and in 7 minutes! I
think I can bear rigging a normal 15m ship... But a heavy 19m wing
makes me wince just thinking about it! All my friends have
lightweight Apises and Libelles and DG-300s - they'd probably get a
bit gruff with me after awhile! ;-)

Thanks, though...

--Noel

Also - my Russia has a 2-piece canopy. I don't hate it, but since I
operate out of a busy airport and I fly in amazingly beautiful
mountains, I really want a 1-piece canopy. Some people want a certain
wing-shape or fuselage shape - me I want a single-piece canopy. ;-)

Noel, we can make that happen, I'm pretty sure I can get the plastic
you need. Just let me know.

But if you do buy JJs DG-300, I'll throw in a "Got Ondulation?" T-
shirt for free!

Thanks, Bob K.