Glider Wheel Brakes

On Fri, 9 May 2008 18:15:51 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I know, I know. BTDT. Has anyone purchased a NEW sailplane lately,
and been happy with the wheel brake? The ONLY glider I've ever flown
with a decent (not great, but decent) wheel brake is the LVVSA's G103
Twin Astir. For me, a GREAT brake will REQUIRE moderation on my part
to keep from grinding the nose. I'm used to relatively modern
motorcycles, that will lock the front wheel with 2 or 3 fingers. I
would vastly rather scrape my nose, than hit the barbed wire at the
far end of a landout.

My partners and I used to have an Astir-CS. A careful brake adjustment
would buy you one, maybe two, firm stops, and the next stop would get
more help from the tailskid than from the brake.

We tried grooving the brake shoes which our mechanic recommended, but
that had no effect. The real problem was in the linkage. It was
actuated by a motorcycle squeeze grip on the stick, and there just
wasn't enough travel available. If the handle moved more than an inch
before the shoe made contact, the rest of its travel would be used up
in stretching the cable, and the handle would hit the stick grip
before any real force got to the shoes.

So we decided to try replacing the cable with something stiffer. An
extensive parts search disclosed that the existing cable was precisely
identical to a Bultaco clutch cable...we were trying to stop a
600-pound sailplane with a cable meant to work the CLUTCH on a
200-pound motorcycle. We eventually found something that worked a bit
better, but still had to adjust pretty frequently.

rj

On May 10, 11:19*am, Ralph Jones wrote:
On Fri, 9 May 2008 18:15:51 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I know, I know. *BTDT. *Has anyone purchased a NEW sailplane lately,
and been happy with the wheel brake? *The ONLY glider I've ever flown
with a decent (not great, but decent) wheel brake is the LVVSA's G103
Twin Astir. For me, a GREAT brake will REQUIRE moderation on my part
to keep from grinding the nose. *I'm used to relatively modern
motorcycles, that will lock the front wheel with 2 or 3 fingers. *I
would vastly rather scrape my nose, than hit the barbed wire at the
far end of a landout.

My partners and I used to have an Astir-CS. A careful brake adjustment
would buy you one, maybe two, firm stops, and the next stop would get
more help from the tailskid than from the brake.

We tried grooving the brake shoes which our mechanic recommended, but
that had no effect. The real problem was in the linkage. It was
actuated by a motorcycle squeeze grip on the stick, and there just
wasn't enough travel available. If the handle moved more than an inch
before the shoe made contact, the rest of its travel would be used up
in stretching the cable, and the handle would hit the stick grip
before any real force got to the shoes.

So we decided to try replacing the cable with something stiffer. An
extensive parts search disclosed that the existing cable was precisely
identical to a Bultaco clutch cable...we were trying to stop a
600-pound sailplane with a cable meant to work the CLUTCH on a
200-pound motorcycle. We eventually found something that worked a bit
better, but still had to adjust pretty frequently.

rj

Yes, I've replaced the original cable on my Speed Astir with more
substantial cable, running in a Teflon sleeved outer. Some
improvement, but lets face it, the mass of the glider and the size of
that single leading shoe brake make it stop, quite predictiably, just
as well as an early 60's Harley.

wrote:
I know, I know. BTDT. Has anyone purchased a NEW sailplane lately,
and been happy with the wheel brake? The ONLY glider I've ever flown
with a decent (not great, but decent) wheel brake is the LVVSA's G103
Twin Astir. For me, a GREAT brake will REQUIRE moderation on my part
to keep from grinding the nose. I'm used to relatively modern
motorcycles, that will lock the front wheel with 2 or 3 fingers. I
would vastly rather scrape my nose, than hit the barbed wire at the
far end of a landout.

I agree completely with that last sentence!

I had an RS-15 in which the builder had installed a standard 4" Tost
drum brake (better than the kit's band-on-tire brake I suppose). The
brake was essentially useless. I've posted this before. I applied the
Tillmann Steckner brake modification (March 1998 Soaring) with superb
results. The new owner of the RS commented on how great the wheel brake
function is. But then this isn't a new glider. Sorry.

Regards,

-Doug

On May 10, 7:21*pm, Doug Hoffman no.spam wrote:
wrote:
I know, I know. *BTDT. *Has anyone purchased a NEW sailplane lately,
and been happy with the wheel brake? *The ONLY glider I've ever flown
with a decent (not great, but decent) wheel brake is the LVVSA's G103
Twin Astir. For me, a GREAT brake will REQUIRE moderation on my part
to keep from grinding the nose. *I'm used to relatively modern
motorcycles, that will lock the front wheel with 2 or 3 fingers. *I
would vastly rather scrape my nose, than hit the barbed wire at the
far end of a landout.

I agree completely with that last sentence!

I had an RS-15 in which the builder had installed a standard 4" Tost
drum brake (better than the kit's band-on-tire brake I suppose). *The
brake was essentially useless. *I've posted this before. *I applied the
Tillmann Steckner brake modification (March 1998 Soaring) with superb
results. *The new owner of the RS commented on how great the wheel brake
function is. *But then this isn't a new glider. *Sorry.

Regards,

-Doug

Thanks for the reference Doug. I'm sure someone in our club has that
issue. I'll look into it. Your 4" tost wasn't the 'Lilliput" as used
on the Libelle, was it? Those are fairly hopeless. The brake on my
Speed Astir is the same as the LS-4. Both are marginal. At least the
Speed Astir doesn't have the undercarriage issues the LS-4 does!

James,
If your brake is properly adjusted and still doesn't work, I would
check the drum for cracks which can occur from attempted hard
breaking. I tried to stop my LS-6 with a load of water and cracked the
drum in 3 places. Google Vintage Brake, they will install a soft shoe
and true up the system (turn the drum, spike the shoe) and give you
the best shot of reasonable breaking. Make sure your hard points are
secure, I once saw an ASW-15 where the bulkhead that mounted the wheel
hard-point, was moving just a tad, but enough to prevent the force
from being transmitted to the brake.
Hope this helps,
JJ

wrote:
On May 10, 7:21�pm, Doug Hoffman no.spam wrote:
wrote:
I know, I know. �BTDT. �Has anyone purchased a NEW sailplane lately,
and been happy with the wheel brake? �The ONLY glider I've ever flown
with a decent (not great, but decent) wheel brake is the LVVSA's G103
Twin Astir. For me, a GREAT brake will REQUIRE moderation on my part
to keep from grinding the nose. �I'm used to relatively modern
motorcycles, that will lock the front wheel with 2 or 3 fingers. �I
would vastly rather scrape my nose, than hit the barbed wire at the
far end of a landout.

I agree completely with that last sentence!

I had an RS-15 in which the builder had installed a standard 4" Tost
drum brake (better than the kit's band-on-tire brake I suppose). �The
brake was essentially useless. �I've posted this before. �I applied the
Tillmann Steckner brake modification (March 1998 Soaring) with superb
results. �The new owner of the RS commented on how great the wheel brake
function is. �But then this isn't a new glider. �Sorry.

Regards,

-Doug

Thanks for the reference Doug. I'm sure someone in our club has that
issue. I'll look into it. Your 4" tost wasn't the 'Lilliput" as used
on the Libelle, was it? Those are fairly hopeless. The brake on my
Speed Astir is the same as the LS-4. Both are marginal. At least the
Speed Astir doesn't have the undercarriage issues the LS-4 does!

Thanks for the reference Doug. I'm sure someone in our club has that
issue. I'll look into it. Your 4" tost wasn't the 'Lilliput" as used
on the Libelle, was it? Those are fairly hopeless. The brake on my
Speed Astir is the same as the LS-4. Both are marginal. At least the
Speed Astir doesn't have the undercarriage issues the LS-4 does!

I would like to hear about the "undercarriage issues" with the LS-4.

Bob

On May 30, 4:58 pm, Bob Thompson wrote:
Thanks for the reference Doug. I'm sure someone in our club has that
issue. I'll look into it. Your 4" tost wasn't the 'Lilliput" as used
on the Libelle, was it? Those are fairly hopeless. The brake on my
Speed Astir is the same as the LS-4. Both are marginal. At least the
Speed Astir doesn't have the undercarriage issues the LS-4 does!

I would like to hear about the "undercarriage issues" with the LS-4.

Bob

??? Collapsing if the gas strut is weak??? But not an exclusive issue
to the LS4.

Darryl

On May 9, 9:15 pm, wrote:
I know, I know. BTDT. Has anyone purchased a NEW sailplane lately,
and been happy with the wheel brake? The ONLY glider I've ever flown
with a decent (not great, but decent) wheel brake is the LVVSA's G103
Twin Astir. For me, a GREAT brake will REQUIRE moderation on my part
to keep from grinding the nose. I'm used to relatively modern
motorcycles, that will lock the front wheel with 2 or 3 fingers. I
would vastly rather scrape my nose, than hit the barbed wire at the
far end of a landout.

The Antares gliders use a Beringer brake and master cylinder.
These are very light, and stop this glider easily (I'm 550kg dry,
660kg at max gross). Only negative: remember not to touch
down with spoilers out full or you may end up replacing a tire !
I'm extremely happy with this system.

A good brake system is comprised of a lot of bits that need
to all be done properly. Here are some of the screw-ups
provided with existing offerings:
- bicycle cables that stretch (even actuating hydraulics)
- cable routing that shreds cables (sharp turns)
- travel limited by badly designed mixing with spoiler mechanism
- hydraulic reservoir below slave cylinder when gear retracted
(siphon action pulls slave cylinders away from disc)
- excess tension blocks open system from venting
- fluid type change leading to corrosion
- single leading shoe drums
- inadequate support for actuating cam in side casting
(wear and slop prevent proper actuation)
- bearings sized inadequately for static load of glider
at max gross (flats bearings which will burn out
on Minden take-offs)

I could go on...

See ya, Dave "YO electric"

On Mon, 12 May 2008 10:19:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On May 9, 9:15 pm, wrote:
I know, I know. BTDT. Has anyone purchased a NEW sailplane lately,
and been happy with the wheel brake? The ONLY glider I've ever flown
with a decent (not great, but decent) wheel brake is the LVVSA's G103
Twin Astir. For me, a GREAT brake will REQUIRE moderation on my part
to keep from grinding the nose. I'm used to relatively modern
motorcycles, that will lock the front wheel with 2 or 3 fingers. I
would vastly rather scrape my nose, than hit the barbed wire at the
far end of a landout.

The Antares gliders use a Beringer brake and master cylinder.
These are very light, and stop this glider easily (I'm 550kg dry,
660kg at max gross). Only negative: remember not to touch
down with spoilers out full or you may end up replacing a tire !
I'm extremely happy with this system.

A good brake system is comprised of a lot of bits that need
to all be done properly. Here are some of the screw-ups
provided with existing offerings:
- bicycle cables that stretch (even actuating hydraulics)
- cable routing that shreds cables (sharp turns)
- travel limited by badly designed mixing with spoiler mechanism
- hydraulic reservoir below slave cylinder when gear retracted
(siphon action pulls slave cylinders away from disc)
- excess tension blocks open system from venting
- fluid type change leading to corrosion
- single leading shoe drums
- inadequate support for actuating cam in side casting
(wear and slop prevent proper actuation)
- bearings sized inadequately for static load of glider
at max gross (flats bearings which will burn out
on Minden take-offs)

I could go on...

See ya, Dave "YO electric"


This topic was in vogue back in 2002. There was mention of a cycle
brake shop in California called VINTAGE BRAKE. I contacted Mike Morse
the owner, and eventually sent him my 5" Tost wheel. What he did was
to install a set of 'advanced composition' brake shoes designed to
minimize fading and to improve the overall performance of vintage
motorcycle drum brakes. He needed my actual wheel so he could first
true it and then 'arc in' the brake shoes to an exacting tolerance.
My DG200's braking went from virtually non-existent to nose-scrapingly
effective Make sure you keep full aft elevator if you lean on
these... I found the braking very very effective, yet progressive. I
also changed out the stock 'bicycle brake" quality handbrake lever
and cable, and installed a Harley clutch cable and a higher quality
bicycle handbrake lever on the control stick. It's a must to minimize
stretch in these cables if you want to deliver full force to your
brake shoes. The brake is now overdue for a new set of shoes. It has
been over 6 years since this overhaul was done, and I can tell that
the effectiveness is slipping a bit. Even though I'm overdue, the
braking is still much superior to the original 5" Tost. It was also
very inexpensive as I recall.
www.vintagebrake.com Mike Morse was very pleasant to work with.
I've tried some of the other exotic drum brake fixes out there without
success. One of these 'fixes" is downright dangerous, as it can
induce a lockup of the brake....hopefully one would not accidentally
touch the lever during a takeoff roll... Hope this will help
someone. It has served me well. RW

RW wrote:

This topic was in vogue back in 2002. There was mention of a
cycle
brake shop in California called VINTAGE BRAKE. I contacted
Mike Morse
the owner, and eventually sent him my 5" Tost wheel. What he
did was
to install a set of 'advanced composition' brake shoes
designed to
minimize fading and to improve the overall performance of
vintage
motorcycle drum brakes. He needed my actual wheel so he could
first
true it and then 'arc in' the brake shoes to an exacting
tolerance.
My DG200's braking went from virtually non-existent to
nose-scrapingly
effective Make sure you keep full aft elevator if you lean
on
these... I found the braking very very effective, yet
progressive. I
also changed out the stock 'bicycle brake" quality handbrake
lever
and cable, and installed a Harley clutch cable and a higher
quality
bicycle handbrake lever on the control stick. It's a must to
minimize
stretch in these cables if you want to deliver full force to
your
brake shoes. The brake is now overdue for a new set of shoes.
It has
been over 6 years since this overhaul was done, and I can tell
that
the effectiveness is slipping a bit. Even though I'm overdue,
the
braking is still much superior to the original 5" Tost. It
was also
very inexpensive as I recall.
www.vintagebrake.com Mike Morse was very pleasant to work
with.
I've tried some of the other exotic drum brake fixes out there
without
success. One of these 'fixes" is downright dangerous, as it
can
induce a lockup of the brake....hopefully one would not
accidentally
touch the lever during a takeoff roll... Hope this will
help
someone. It has served me well.

Makes one wonder how/why Tost built such poor brakes for so many
years.

--
Regards
-Doug

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