Germany Lost the War... So What?

"Tuollaf43" wrote in message
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"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
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"Tuollaf43" wrote in message
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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
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"robert arndt" wrote in message
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The US postwar history:


Facts arent your strong point are they ?

Korea: stalemate

South Korea was saved from the invading forces of the DPRK
and now a prosperous democracy and ally. Meanwhile the
DPRK moulders in a prison of its own making.

Cuban Missile Crisis: stalemate

Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded.

And the Jupiters from Turkey as Russia demanded, along with assurances
that US would not invade Cuba. Stalemate.

Older missiles already planned for removal--we had a new program coming
online about that time which you may have heard of...Polaris? We also
removed the Thors from the UK at about the same time, and for the same
reasons--they were liquid fueled and had been made superfluous.

Are you disputing the fact that missiles in turkey were removed on the
insistence of the soviets? Then you are utterly wrong.

If you read the account by Andrei Gromyko you will find that the Kennedy
administration did indeed agree to eventually remove the Jupiters from
Turkey, as a sop to Khrushchev. Interestingly, that subject is not even
mentioned in notes from participants in the closed door Kremlin meetings
regarding how to wiggle out of the dilemma the Soviets found themselves in:
millercenter.virginia.edu/resources/ print/kremlin/kremlin_two_views.pdf

On the other hand, notes from high level US meetings at the same time
indicate: "The President recalled that over a year ago we wanted to get the
Jupiter missiles out of Turkey because they had become obsolete and of
little military value. If the missiles in Cuba added 50% to Soviet nuclear
capability, then to trade these missiles for those in Turkey would be of
great military value." www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/
forrel/cuba/cuba090.htm

So we gave away missiles we had already been planning on removing--big deal.
More interesting is the fact that the Kennedys wanted to keep the Jupiter
removal portion of the deal secret (which is about par for the Kennedy
clan).


The fact that the removed system was obsolete and due for removal
anyway is immaterial. All you can claim is that the soviets could have
bartered de-nuclearization of Cuba for some more useful concession -
not that there was no concession.

Is it a "concession" when it agrees with your own internal desires and
plans? I think not. I'd call that more in the line of a bargain (and be
aware that my views on this have changed over the past year or two, after
this subject was previously discussed and I had reason to peruse Gromyko's
book, followed by a bit of reading on where the Jupiter program was going at
the time). I am not a big Kennedy fan, to put it mildly--but in this case he
gave up what we already wanted to rid ourselves of and in the process
swecured what we *wanted*, namely the removal of those SS-4's from Cuba.



snip

Afghanistan: attack on another unworthy adversary. Taliban and
Osama
escape into Pakistan. International force needed again. Failure.

Success , Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for terrorist groups

Terrorists out, drug lords in. And I suppose all those reports of
Taliban resurgence in the Pashtun areas are all propaganda.

Uhmmm... the key at this point is,as Keith pointed out, it is no longer
serving as an open bazaar and training ground for terrorists--

If Taliban comes, can Osama be far behind?

"If 'ifs and buts' were candy and nuts..." It appears that the majority of
Afghanis are quite happy to be rid of the Taliban leadership; deposing them
from power was a *good* thing. AQ is not able to use Afghanistan as a
free-movement area and training base--that too is a good thing.


and that a few
other nations took note and became a bit less receptive of other
terrorist
operations.

This is undoubtedly true. And certainly a good achievement.

Considering the fact that the opposing cost, in terms of casualties and even
reconstruction aid/support to Afghanistan, has not been very high, OEF has
been a significant success.



snip


Germany had a larger population than any 10 states combined

LOL! Tell us more.

Uhmmm...the total population of Germany in 1940 was some 80 million, the
US
population was about 130 million, with the top four states (NY, PA, TX,
CA)
only accounting for some 34 million--so you can run the numbers further
if
you like, but it appears Keith's statement is in fact correct.

www.ciaonet.org/book/schweller/appendix.html


and controlled the combined industries of western europe
and couldnt even beat Britain.

Before the War Germany was a major (but not predominant) power in
Europe. Today it still is a major (but not predominant) power in
Europe.

Thank goodness for the Marshall Plan, huh?

Before the war Britain was a major world power with a globe
spanning empire - today it is a mere lackey to the US.

That's not correct. The UK remains an independent nation;

There are degrees of independence. And I never said UK is not
independence, merely a US lackey.

Uhmm..in most peoples minds, the two terms are sort of opposites. The UK
remains capable of determining its own course. In fact, Blair has reportedly
had some success in steering our own policy in a slightly different
direction at times over the past few years. Most USians still have a great
deal of respect for the UK, and while it cannot any longer muster the level
of economic or military power that the US can wield, it is considered to be
a partner as opposed to a "lackey". Common language (for the most part) and
a lot of common history makes for a pretty strong relationship between the
two nations.


that it has
happened to agree with the US in more cases than it disagrees is as much
a
product of common values than anything else.

ummm. I dare say you could be right. Both seem to value oil over life,

No. That would be your rather infantile characterization. We *do* value
stability in a region that controls such a significant portion of a
commodity vital to most of the rest of the world. You act as if this is some
sort of colonial conquest--but in fact we are trying to disengage from Iraq
just as quickly as we can, and let the Iraqi people get back to running
their own government and affairs. That would be another one of those "good
things", when compared to what they have had to endure over the past thirty
years or so.

propaganda over facts.

It would appear that you are the one valuing propaganda over facts, since
you have bought into the "US wants the Iraqi oil" whacky conspiracy theory.
You seem to accept the propaganda put out by the former Iraqi regime without
question.


Reading anything further into
it merely indicates a degree of paranoia on your part.

Perhaps reading anything less indicateds a degree of myopia on your
part?

No.


And why in the world would anyone be afraid of the UK?

I doubt the UK's goal is to be feared. But I can't think of any nation,
other than the US, that could contemplate going toe-to-toe with the UK in a
military confrontation without coming out of it hurting a hell of a lot
worse than when it went into it, and most would outright lose.

Fear of US is
understandable - its rich, powerful

Yep, we are.

snip inane whining

But
why would US+UK be particularly more frightful. It is like arguing
that you are afraid of the gorilla because a chipmunk is backing it
up.

That "chipmunk" has some of the best light infantry troops in the world. It
has an extremely professional and capable (despite its diminished size)
naval force. The RAF is likewise very professional, on a par with the USAF.
During OEF the RAF offered some capabilities that were rather handy to our
CENTCOM folks--additional ISR assets, including the venerable Canberra PR9
and IIRC their SIGINT Nimrods, and a very valuableaerial refueling
contribution that was especially of value to our USN assets. Their SOF are
truly world class. That is one mean little chipmunk you have there.



Germany might
not have won,

No, there is no doubt--she did not win. Thank goodness for that, huh?

You feel very grateful, perhaps with cause. I dont have any particular
reason to feel happy or unhappy about the German loss.

Really? Very few folks in this world can claim to be ambivalent about the
spectre of Nazism being triumphant in that war; those that do have a serious
morality flaw.

To me it is a
story of distant land in a distant time. Personally it is as
emotionally immediate to me as Napoleans loss in Russia or Roman
razing of Carthage; I dont grit my teeth at massacres of the
assyrians, the golden horde, nazis or the bomber command. It is just
sad but engrossing history to me.

My, it must be nice (or should i just say naive?) to be able to ignore the
gas chambers, the ovens, the Einzatsgruppen, etc., or to consider that the
defeat of the regime that championed those developments during our parents
lifetime (for many of us) was "no big deal", so to speak.


I have seen sufficient bad stuff in my own life time - I dont need to
weep for generations long past. Learning from them is enough.

Despite the untold tragedy and suffering the second world war wrought,
there is atleast one shining bright point about that whole tragic
affair. Thanks in large measure to Hitler and Roosevelt, the British
Empire is now history.

One has to wonder what your nationality and background is to have all of
this pent-up hostility towards the British that you demonstrate. Odd that
you are so forgiving, or uncaring, regarding the cause of Nazism, yet so
willing to cling to your own archaic hatred of the "British Empire".

snip


but Britain sure seems to have lost.

Lost what? Are you sure you are not confusing the UK with *France*?

I am talking about the fortunes of nations on a larger scale, not
battles and wars. Think big (if at all possible).

France was crushed in the first world war. It is yet to recover from
that beating.

UK was smashed in the second world war, not as badly as france, but
smashed non the less.

Odd, in that they were on the winning side. The disintegration of their
former "empire", in the real sense of the word, was well underway before the
war. And I note that the Brits did not put a great deal of effort into
retaining control of its old colonial holdings. Time marches on and the
world changes; the UK accepted that and has maintained a rather important
place in the greater scheme of world order. That would be another "good
thing", by the way, especially when you consider the alternative had they
not been on the winning side during WWII.



Now
France *did* lose, just like Germany eventually lost...

Indeed Germany lost. But it seemed to have bounced back pretty much to
the same stature it had before the war. Cant say the same for France
or UK can you?

In the case of the UK, yes I can.

Brooks


sorry if that all
upsets you, but them's the facts.

So nice of you to be concerned about my happiness Grofaz. Thanks.


Brooks


Keith

In article ,
(Tuollaf43) wrote:

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"robert arndt" wrote in message
m...
The US postwar history:


Facts arent your strong point are they ?

Korea: stalemate

South Korea was saved from the invading forces of the DPRK
and now a prosperous democracy and ally. Meanwhile the
DPRK moulders in a prison of its own making.

Cuban Missile Crisis: stalemate

Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded.

And the Jupiters from Turkey as Russia demanded, along with assurances
that US would not invade Cuba. Stalemate.

The Jupiters were out of service everywhere in any case within two years.
They were replaced...the Russian missiles in Cuba were not.

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"robert arndt" wrote in message
m...
The US postwar history:


Facts arent your strong point are they ?

Korea: stalemate

South Korea was saved from the invading forces of the DPRK
and now a prosperous democracy and ally. Meanwhile the
DPRK moulders in a prison of its own making.

We're talking war and power here. The Chinese human waves forced us
back until we eventually reached the starting point- the 38th
parallel. MacArthur could have defeated them in 1950 if he was allowed
to bomb the Yalu River bridges but was overruled by Washington. Later,
he was sacked. Big mistake.

Cuban Missile Crisis: stalemate

Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded.

Remember the failed "Bay of Pigs" and Washington's agreement with
Moscow to remove US missiles out of Turkey months later?

Vietnam: LOST
Operation Eagle Claw (Iranian Hostage Rescue): Failure
Lebanon: Marines blown up- failure

True enough

Reagan-Bush years: a string of success shooting down a few Libyan MiGs
and attacking small puny nations with no AF- Victory?

Then there's the little matter of the fall of communism, the
dissolution of the Warsaw Pact and the collapse of the USSR

Which is more due to Soviet citizens standing in line for bread 8 hrs
a day and the forever unattainable 5 year plans they made... not to
mention devoting almost all their resources to defense and the
corruption of the Communist Party elite. Then there was also the KGB
terror and its informer network. The fall was inevitable and without
the USSR the Warsaw Pact was nothing.


Gulf War I: had to raise a coalition to fight another Third World
nation, didn't finish the job which leads to Gulf War II. Kurds and
population suffer as a result.

The war aims of expelling Iraq from Kuwait were achieved

After the nation was brutally raped, robbed, murdered, and
ecologically polluted. Saddam, meanwhile, was untouched and building
more palaces...

The Balkans: another attack on an unworthy adversary. Serbs leave with
their armor and military/police units intact. International force
needed.

The war aims of protecting the Kosovans from Serbian ethnic cleansing
were achieved

Oh please, too little too late. Serb soldiers insulted International
forces as they left Kosovo and threatened ethnic minorities right in
front the peacekeepers.

Terrorist attack on the USS Cole: failed

Quite so, the ship was repaired and re-entered service

A US Naval warship which should have been adequately protected. Taken
out by a raft of explosives.

9/11: could prevent terrorist attack, 3000 fatalities

Biggest disaster of them off and no comment? US the invincible brought
to agony by a few jet liners of terrorists?


Afghanistan: attack on another unworthy adversary. Taliban and Osama
escape into Pakistan. International force needed again. Failure.

Success , Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for terrorist groups

Are you insane? Try going there and leaving Kabul. The rest of the
nation is in the hands of warlords who shelter terrorists and hate the
US. My buddy is over there right now. He says its the same dirt
******** as ever.

Iraq prewar: Fires at US aircraft for 7 years, US retaliates in 1998,
Iraq resumes firing at US aircraft for 4 more years
Gulf War II: US goes it alone, captures Saddam but cannot get real
reconstruction support or troops needed to finish the job due to
isolating UN and certain European nations- failure


The British troops who took Southern Iraq and Basra tend to disagree
about the going it alone bit.

Oh thank God for British token forces whose own weapons and gear are
****. I assume you're British, so don't you read your own papers for
God-save-the-Queen sakes!!! All you guys did was sit in the rear and
deliver humanitarian aid while the US drove downtown to Baghdad.

Wow, how underwhelming it all is. We seem to be able to pound into
submission any puny Third World nation without a significant AF.

Iraq started GW1 with the 4th largest army in the world and
a large AF and air defence system, of course when it was over ....

4th largest army stat doesn't mean ****. They were pathetic fighting
soldiers. The Hitler Youth could have taken them out!!!

But
we don't dare strike Iran, N Korea, or China. In fact China openly
threatens the US over Taiwan and is militarily developing systems to
defeat our stealth, satellites, and to attack the US with missiles in
the future. Iran has threatened the US over its nuclear reactor and N
Korea has done the same over its nuclear program which we failed to
stop. BTW, try attacking the FSU even at its weakest... they have
twice the nukes we have and we all know the history of those that
invade Mother Russia. On their turf the US would lose, same in China.

The difference of course is the US knows that, your hero Adolf didnt.

On Russia maybe, but fighting with China in the future is inevitable.

So I don't care how many time you say Germany lost. Germany is the
size of 1 US state and took on the world. It took everyone with
everything to beat them.

Germany had a larger population than any 10 states combined
and controlled the combined industries of western europe
and couldnt even beat Britain.

I could only wish that the political decision to change direction
eastward would have never come and Sea Lion would have happened. What
would have Britain defended itself with then- the Home Guard with
pitch forks and shotguns? You should thank God a lone German bomber
ditched its bombs on London and saved your nation. Germany could have
kept fighting and by the winter of 1940 you would have ran out of
pilots and planes- had the Germans not diverted to civilian targets
like London.

Keith

Keep dreaming on,
Rob

You seem to conveniently be forgetting a basic fact: Germany unleashed a
vicious all-out war machine to win at all costs. The United States has yet
to fight a war without severe political constraints dictating what it can
and cannot do. If the US waged Nazi or Soviet-style war and simply employed
its capacity to lay waste to whatever it chose conventionally we would have
produced the sort of 'victories' you see to prize so greatly. Fortunately,
we don't do that since, unlike you, we're not Nazis.

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"robert arndt" wrote in message
m...
The US postwar history:


Facts arent your strong point are they ?

Korea: stalemate

South Korea was saved from the invading forces of the DPRK
and now a prosperous democracy and ally. Meanwhile the
DPRK moulders in a prison of its own making.

We're talking war and power here. The Chinese human waves forced us
back until we eventually reached the starting point- the 38th
parallel. MacArthur could have defeated them in 1950 if he was allowed
to bomb the Yalu River bridges but was overruled by Washington. Later,
he was sacked. Big mistake.

Cuban Missile Crisis: stalemate

Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded.

Remember the failed "Bay of Pigs" and Washington's agreement with
Moscow to remove US missiles out of Turkey months later?

Bay of Pigs failed because there was no air support by the US. The deal with
the Soviets was moot-ified by the US drawdown of the entire missile class
later, replacing them with weapons like advanced ICBMs ans later Polaris.

Vietnam: LOST
Operation Eagle Claw (Iranian Hostage Rescue): Failure
Lebanon: Marines blown up- failure

True enough

Reagan-Bush years: a string of success shooting down a few Libyan MiGs
and attacking small puny nations with no AF- Victory?

Then there's the little matter of the fall of communism, the
dissolution of the Warsaw Pact and the collapse of the USSR

Which is more due to Soviet citizens standing in line for bread 8 hrs
a day and the forever unattainable 5 year plans they made... not to
mention devoting almost all their resources to defense and the
corruption of the Communist Party elite. Then there was also the KGB
terror and its informer network. The fall was inevitable and without
the USSR the Warsaw Pact was nothing.

Without the West forcing the USSR to spend itself into oblivion, and
supporting people like the rebels in Afghanistan, this would have gone
longer - and that loss of financial and political will on the USSR's point
also saved East Germany, and allowed the reunification. Standing up to
Communism in the Western Hemisphere/Central American helped as well.

Gulf War I: had to raise a coalition to fight another Third World
nation, didn't finish the job which leads to Gulf War II. Kurds and
population suffer as a result.

The war aims of expelling Iraq from Kuwait were achieved

After the nation was brutally raped, robbed, murdered, and
ecologically polluted. Saddam, meanwhile, was untouched and building
more palaces...

Blame the UN, not the US. The UN resolution was only to free Kuwait. If
Saddam had pulled out when asked, the Coalition would not have had reason to
bomb him either. Heck, Saddam killed a lot of Kurds, a lot of Kuwaitis, a
lot of other Iraqis and a lot of Iranians. Eventually the US took your
advice and went all the way to Baghdad, and it was Continental Europe what
gave them hell for it.

The Balkans: another attack on an unworthy adversary. Serbs leave with
their armor and military/police units intact. International force
needed.

The war aims of protecting the Kosovans from Serbian ethnic cleansing
were achieved

Oh please, too little too late. Serb soldiers insulted International
forces as they left Kosovo and threatened ethnic minorities right in
front the peacekeepers.

And now the Albanians kill Serbs and other minorities in front of them. And
the province has become a smuggling center where the vilest crimes go on
under UN supervision, and I suspect a little bit of sanction as well.

Terrorist attack on the USS Cole: failed

Quite so, the ship was repaired and re-entered service

A US Naval warship which should have been adequately protected. Taken
out by a raft of explosives.

Making the mistake of assuming they were making a port visit to a friendly
place. Terrorists often seek such weaknesses instead of fighting "fair." The
US is now camping out and rebuilding in the nation the Al Quaeda and their
buddies used to run.

9/11: could prevent terrorist attack, 3000 fatalities

Biggest disaster of them off and no comment? US the invincible brought
to agony by a few jet liners of terrorists?

Excuse me? Could have prevented? By how? Psychic hotline? Come on, this is
less believable than UFOs at Antartica or whatever.

And yes, killing thousands of people was a horrible thing. Yes a lot of men,
women, and children on planes and in buildings died. It is nothing to be
funny about. But it didn't paralyse the US, it had a different effect.
Personally the day after I wanted to get on an airliner to show we weren't
going to be pushed around, like the Israelis returning to bus stops after
bombings. Pearl Harbor was a sneak attack as well, and this had a similar
effect. People died and were injured horribly, and a nation grieved her
losses. Then went after those who did it. Were it your nation you would do
the same.

Afghanistan: attack on another unworthy adversary. Taliban and Osama
escape into Pakistan. International force needed again. Failure.

Success , Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for terrorist groups

Are you insane? Try going there and leaving Kabul. The rest of the
nation is in the hands of warlords who shelter terrorists and hate the
US. My buddy is over there right now. He says its the same dirt
******** as ever.

I have a friend over there now as well, sir. He is proud of what they are
doing. They are clearing mines where he is at planted over 10 or so years of
war. Less kids will get blown up because of that. Do you think a nation
blown and beaten apart over 20 plus years will be rebuilt in a day? No. But
there is a beginning of a process there. And that counts for more than any
amount of griping.

Iraq prewar: Fires at US aircraft for 7 years, US retaliates in 1998,
Iraq resumes firing at US aircraft for 4 more years
Gulf War II: US goes it alone, captures Saddam but cannot get real
reconstruction support or troops needed to finish the job due to
isolating UN and certain European nations- failure


The British troops who took Southern Iraq and Basra tend to disagree
about the going it alone bit.

Oh thank God for British token forces whose own weapons and gear are
****. I assume you're British, so don't you read your own papers for
God-save-the-Queen sakes!!! All you guys did was sit in the rear and
deliver humanitarian aid while the US drove downtown to Baghdad.

The battle for Basra was quite bloody. And the UK gets eternal credit from
the US for having our backs.

Wow, how underwhelming it all is. We seem to be able to pound into
submission any puny Third World nation without a significant AF.

Iraq started GW1 with the 4th largest army in the world and
a large AF and air defence system, of course when it was over ....

4th largest army stat doesn't mean ****. They were pathetic fighting
soldiers. The Hitler Youth could have taken them out!!!

Actually, they had fought a ten year war with Iran and wrecked Kuwait
handily. Saudi Arabia was also worried about them enough to call in half the
world to help them stand off against Iraq. They had one of the most advanced
air defense networks in the world, chemical weapons (Proof was in the ones
they blew up after 1991) and a heck of a lot of tanks. Their soldiers had
been in battles and were willing to fight. They had missiled a US ship
previously in a sneak attack with an Exocet. They were quite deadly to be
sure. The Hitler Youth comment is sad.

But
we don't dare strike Iran, N Korea, or China. In fact China openly
threatens the US over Taiwan and is militarily developing systems to
defeat our stealth, satellites, and to attack the US with missiles in
the future. Iran has threatened the US over its nuclear reactor and N
Korea has done the same over its nuclear program which we failed to
stop. BTW, try attacking the FSU even at its weakest... they have
twice the nukes we have and we all know the history of those that
invade Mother Russia. On their turf the US would lose, same in China.

The difference of course is the US knows that, your hero Adolf didnt.

On Russia maybe, but fighting with China in the future is inevitable.

Not really. People used to say that about the USSR. And if China sees more
to gain in peace than war, plus the risks of war, peace is promising.

So I don't care how many time you say Germany lost. Germany is the
size of 1 US state and took on the world. It took everyone with
everything to beat them.

Germany had a larger population than any 10 states combined
and controlled the combined industries of western europe
and couldnt even beat Britain.

I could only wish that the political decision to change direction
eastward would have never come and Sea Lion would have happened. What
would have Britain defended itself with then- the Home Guard with
pitch forks and shotguns?

Against what? Germany had virtually no landing craft. Their doctrine was not
intact and the UK had sea superiority with the Royal Navy. The smarter play
for Germany would have been to have a larger U-Boat force, but they were
behind the building curve on that at the war's start. Hitler had not planned
for a war with Britian and France in 1940.

You should thank God a lone German bomber
ditched its bombs on London and saved your nation. Germany could have
kept fighting and by the winter of 1940 you would have ran out of
pilots and planes- had the Germans not diverted to civilian targets
like London.

The Germans were against the first successful radar-equipped defense system,
and pilots from many nations were flocking to Britain. The German fighters
had very little time over Britain to protect the bombers due to fuel
constraints. Even had the Germans been able to secure some airspace over
southern England, the ability to land troops was not theirs.

Troops they tried to land would have faced stiff defenses, as well. The
Germans, to my knowledge, had no equivalent of the Allied UDTs that cleared
beach obstacles at Normandy. Things like flaming oil slicks, mines, and
obstacles would have been in their way. Plus the aforementioned Royal Navy.
And whatever the RAF had to throw at them.

Keith

Keep dreaming on,
Rob

On Russia maybe, but fighting with China in the future is inevitable.

Hardly. China is dependent on the US, directly and indirectly, for the
majority of its annual growth and over 20% of its entire economy. That's
not going to change much in the future as the two become more and more
intertwined. To even get into a position to battle America in Asia, much
less elsewhere, would require decades of spending the Chinese can't even
afford to build up to, and have no reason to. It won't be smooth sailing,
but China has vastly more reasons to remain friends if not allies with the
United States than to plunge itself back into the middle of last century and
ruin decades of economic building by trying to fight it.

In message KiVYb.27758$Zt4.11905@okepread01, t_mark
writes
On Russia maybe, but fighting with China in the future is inevitable.

Hardly. China is dependent on the US, directly and indirectly, for the
majority of its annual growth and over 20% of its entire economy. That's
not going to change much in the future as the two become more and more
intertwined.

I'm minded of the confident predictions around the start of the 20th
Century, about how the Great Powers were now so intertwined by trade and
diplomacy that a major war was now unthinkable and impossible.

Whoops.

To even get into a position to battle America in Asia, much
less elsewhere, would require decades of spending the Chinese can't even
afford to build up to, and have no reason to. It won't be smooth sailing,
but China has vastly more reasons to remain friends if not allies with the
United States than to plunge itself back into the middle of last century and
ruin decades of economic building by trying to fight it.

True, but common sense can be remarkably elusive on occasion.



--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"Paul J. Adam" wrote:

In message KiVYb.27758$Zt4.11905@okepread01, t_mark
writes
On Russia maybe, but fighting with China in the future is inevitable.

Hardly. China is dependent on the US, directly and indirectly, for the
majority of its annual growth and over 20% of its entire economy. That's
not going to change much in the future as the two become more and more
intertwined.

I'm minded of the confident predictions around the start of the 20th
Century, about how the Great Powers were now so intertwined by trade and
diplomacy that a major war was now unthinkable and impossible.

Whoops.

To even get into a position to battle America in Asia, much
less elsewhere, would require decades of spending the Chinese can't even
afford to build up to, and have no reason to. It won't be smooth sailing,
but China has vastly more reasons to remain friends if not allies with the
United States than to plunge itself back into the middle of last century and
ruin decades of economic building by trying to fight it.

True, but common sense can be remarkably elusive on occasion.

And what a disappointment *you* turned out to be. Where's KP, eh?

Grantland
--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"robert arndt" wrote in message
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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
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"robert arndt" wrote in message
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The US postwar history:


Facts arent your strong point are they ?

Korea: stalemate

South Korea was saved from the invading forces of the DPRK
and now a prosperous democracy and ally. Meanwhile the
DPRK moulders in a prison of its own making.

We're talking war and power here. The Chinese human waves forced us
back until we eventually reached the starting point- the 38th
parallel.

Which was not the "starting point" for US forces--our troops did not enter
the fray until after the DPRK offensive was already steamrolling its way
down the Peninsula. In the end we maintained the ROK's border--sounds like a
win to me.

MacArthur could have defeated them in 1950 if he was allowed
to bomb the Yalu River bridges but was overruled by Washington.

Bull****. The PLA was quite capable of using improvised bridging (and did do
so).

Later,
he was sacked. Big mistake.

Actually, no, it was one of Truman's better moves. Dougie and his intel
weenies had ignored repeated indications of the intent of the PLA to enter
the conflict, and continued to press forward beyond their support capability
anyway--and his subordinate commanders (Almond, Smith, etc.) were none too
comfortable with the situation.


Cuban Missile Crisis: stalemate

Nope, the Soviet missiles were withdrawn as the US demanded.

Remember the failed "Bay of Pigs" and Washington's agreement with
Moscow to remove US missiles out of Turkey months later?

You mean the missiles we ahd already planned to remove in rather short
order? You ever notice that the Thors that we and the Brits had under joint
control in the UK were also removed a year or so later (and they were not
part of the deal)? Wonder why?

snip


Then there's the little matter of the fall of communism, the
dissolution of the Warsaw Pact and the collapse of the USSR

Which is more due to Soviet citizens standing in line for bread 8 hrs
a day and the forever unattainable 5 year plans they made... not to
mention devoting almost all their resources to defense and the
corruption of the Communist Party elite. Then there was also the KGB
terror and its informer network. The fall was inevitable and without
the USSR the Warsaw Pact was nothing.

And why were those citizens having to stand in line? Why were they not
instead eating French bread and drinking (West) German wine? Becuase the US
and its NATO allies kept them out of Western Europe, and then engaged them
in a nifty little "spending war" that broke their feeble bank. Yup, that's a
win.



Gulf War I: had to raise a coalition to fight another Third World
nation, didn't finish the job which leads to Gulf War II. Kurds and
population suffer as a result.

The war aims of expelling Iraq from Kuwait were achieved

After the nation was brutally raped, robbed, murdered, and
ecologically polluted.

Kind of hard to stop the initial attack without our having forces on the
ground in the region, huh? But as Keith noted, in the end we kicked him back
into his own territory, so...another win.

Saddam, meanwhile, was untouched and building
more palaces...

But his air force and army were sure as hell not "untouched". Made things
quite a bit easier when we went in for round two.


The Balkans: another attack on an unworthy adversary. Serbs leave with
their armor and military/police units intact. International force
needed.

The war aims of protecting the Kosovans from Serbian ethnic cleansing
were achieved

Oh please, too little too late. Serb soldiers insulted International
forces as they left Kosovo and threatened ethnic minorities right in
front the peacekeepers.

Threats they have not been able to carry out. And wouldn't you know it,
Milosevich is out of power, and the current Yugo Serb government is trying
to rebuild relations, right?


Terrorist attack on the USS Cole: failed

Quite so, the ship was repaired and re-entered service

A US Naval warship which should have been adequately protected. Taken
out by a raft of explosives.

Hey, it happens. What your point to this would be is beyond me--it is not as
if, for example, we let bad guys into the Olympic Games to cause all sorts
of mayhem and murder...


9/11: could prevent terrorist attack, 3000 fatalities

Biggest disaster of them off and no comment? US the invincible brought
to agony by a few jet liners of terrorists?

What is there to comment about? It happened--slimy terrorists murdered a lot
of innocent people. Unfortunately, it will not be the last time terrorists
murder people, and no nation on earth can assure the complete safety of its
citizens. The more amazing fact is that someone like you is too dimwitted to
realize that.



Afghanistan: attack on another unworthy adversary. Taliban and Osama
escape into Pakistan. International force needed again. Failure.

Success , Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for terrorist groups

Are you insane? Try going there and leaving Kabul. The rest of the
nation is in the hands of warlords who shelter terrorists and hate the
US. My buddy is over there right now. He says its the same dirt
******** as ever.

Firstly, one wonders if you actually have any buddies; if you do, it is
likely only because the poor jerk has never read the crap you post in this
NG. Secondly, the fact of the matter is that AQ can not consider Afghanistan
as free parking any longer...not to mention that since we went in there we
have managed to derail subsequent AQ efforts. Much better to keep the little
devils on the run and looking back over their shoulders as opposed to
allowing them free reign to develop their nasty little plots.


Iraq prewar: Fires at US aircraft for 7 years, US retaliates in 1998,
Iraq resumes firing at US aircraft for 4 more years
Gulf War II: US goes it alone, captures Saddam but cannot get real
reconstruction support or troops needed to finish the job due to
isolating UN and certain European nations- failure


The British troops who took Southern Iraq and Basra tend to disagree
about the going it alone bit.

Oh thank God for British token forces

"Token forces"? You must not have ever read the ORBAT, huh?

whose own weapons and gear are
****.

That would be "combat proven ****" to you, mister. Which is more than can be
said for the equipment produced by your favorite nation, huh?

I assume you're British, so don't you read your own papers for
God-save-the-Queen sakes!!! All you guys did was sit in the rear and
deliver humanitarian aid while the US drove downtown to Baghdad.

No, they also took Basra, and their SOF operators ranged throughout the
country, at least according to what Newsweek published.


Wow, how underwhelming it all is. We seem to be able to pound into
submission any puny Third World nation without a significant AF.

Iraq started GW1 with the 4th largest army in the world and
a large AF and air defence system, of course when it was over ....

4th largest army stat doesn't mean ****. They were pathetic fighting
soldiers. The Hitler Youth could have taken them out!!!

Ah! Sieg Heil! Your true colors show once again, you pathetic little Nazi
sycophant/miscreant.


But
we don't dare strike

What is this "we" ****, Kimosabe? You got a turd in your pocket? You make it
amply clear that you don't care for the US and much prefer the "good ol'
days" when hobnailed boots rang out in the kasernes. Tell you what, if the
good folks of this NG got together and started a collection to pay for your
transportation back to Germany, would you take us up on it? Please? Of
course, it appears that the real Germans may not take you in with loving
arms, based upon some of the responses you have garnered from them...

Iran, N Korea, or China. In fact China openly
threatens the US over Taiwan and is militarily developing systems to
defeat our stealth, satellites, and to attack the US with missiles in
the future. Iran has threatened the US over its nuclear reactor and N
Korea has done the same over its nuclear program which we failed to
stop. BTW, try attacking the FSU even at its weakest... they have
twice the nukes we have and we all know the history of those that
invade Mother Russia. On their turf the US would lose, same in China.

The difference of course is the US knows that, your hero Adolf didnt.

On Russia maybe, but fighting with China in the future is inevitable.

So I don't care how many time you say Germany lost. Germany is the
size of 1 US state and took on the world. It took everyone with
everything to beat them.

Germany had a larger population than any 10 states combined
and controlled the combined industries of western europe
and couldnt even beat Britain.

I could only wish that the political decision to change direction
eastward would have never come and Sea Lion would have happened. What
would have Britain defended itself with then- the Home Guard with
pitch forks and shotguns? You should thank God a lone German bomber
ditched its bombs on London and saved your nation. Germany could have
kept fighting and by the winter of 1940 you would have ran out of
pilots and planes- had the Germans not diverted to civilian targets
like London.

To your neverending lament, all of this is but a pipedream conjured up in
your feeble little Nazi loving mind. Normally using the N-word is an automat
ic argument loser in these environs--but in your case, given your obvious
(and repeated) demonstrations of admiration and dedication to the cause, it
is about the only descriptor applicable.

Brooks


Keith

Keep dreaming on,
Rob

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
"robert arndt" wrote in message
m...
The US postwar history:


Facts arent your strong point are they ?

Korea: stalemate

South Korea was saved from the invading forces of the DPRK
and now a prosperous democracy and ally. Meanwhile the
DPRK moulders in a prison of its own making.

We're talking war and power here. The Chinese human waves forced us
back until we eventually reached the starting point- the 38th
parallel. MacArthur could have defeated them in 1950 if he was allowed
to bomb the Yalu River bridges but was overruled by Washington. Later,
he was sacked. Big mistake.

The Yalu river isnt quite that formidable

Keith