Parallel grass/paved runways

Yes, we operate this way at our airport. The original poster was
considering "formal" designation with separate markings, etc. That
would involve the FAA, paper work filing, a site visit possibly, and
definitely a refusal. All of that together with a refusal would likely
cause a municipal airport authority to become frightened and stop the
operation.



At 13:52 18 June 2008, jchutch wrote:
On Jun 17, 11:58 pm, Nyal Williams wrote:
At 22:04 17 June 2008, danlj wrote:


If you look into the CFRs about parallel runways you will find that
they
must be separated by 750ft, IIRC. This means you cannot "formally
designate" a second runway with markings, etc. at your site.

There are lots of airports where gliders operate from the grass
alongside
the paved runway, but none of these are designated as separate
runways.

3B3, in Sterling, Mass., home of the very active (150+ members)
Greater Boston Soaring Club and MIT Soaring Association, is set up
this way. The parallel grass strip is well maintained, but I do not
believe it is listed as a separate runway. Landing pilots sequence,
and when announcing on CTAF, we simply state "taking the grass." If
power traffic is on final, launches from the grid are definitely put
on hold

The Hemet-Ryan public airport KHMT in CA opperates with a grass
landing area adjacent to one of the the asphalt runways.

They do takeoff from the asphalt however so its not exactly as you
describe.

They do have to sequence with other traffic since there is not enough
separation between the Asphalt and the grass.

I think the regular power traffic stick to the south runway since it
is adjacent to the GA hangers and parking where the gliders,
Ultralights and a few others use the North runway since it is close
to their hangers, parking etc.

There is a history here of the Airports development.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemet-Ryan_Airport

Lake Elsinore, CA Pvt airport CA89 has 2 parrallel runways with
several hundred feet separation, one for gliders and one for a busy
Skydive operation and we have strick adherence to specific patterns
and we never have any problems

Dan, Ionia County Municipal (KY70) in Michigan operate parallel.
Glider strip is directly adjacent to active, only separated by the
lights. Power traffic is light enough that it works out.
Adrian County Michigan KADG (Adrian Soaring Club) also operates
parallel to one of multiple hard surfaces.
~Barny

It is possible to put the grass runway as a "glider operating area" on
the Airport Master Plan. This is usually filed with the FSDO and then
becomes the approved plan for that field - there can of course be
local planning comnission issuel that need to be dealt with.

Wrong answer... you are relating that to IFR runways..
Our runways are paved, painted and 300ft centerline to centerline.. 0L7

BT

"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
At 22:04 17 June 2008, danlj wrote:
snip
I am now on the airport commission, a good position from which to
request that we formally designate the 100 ft X 3000 ft grass area
paralleling the paved runway along its south side as a parallel runway
for recreation and training, with proper markings.
snip

If you look into the CFRs about parallel runways you will find that they
must be separated by 750ft, IIRC. This means you cannot "formally
designate" a second runway with markings, etc. at your site.

There are lots of airports where gliders operate from the grass alongside
the paved runway, but none of these are designated as separate runways.
You can continue to operate as you and the others do with a local
understanding of the procedures.

This means you have technically one runway and one approach path with the
pilot having the choice of where to touch down. If I understand parallel
runways correctly, they allow constant simultaneous approaches without
regard for the traffic on either side, and the traffic is governed by a
tower. At an airport with no tower and landing areas closer than 750(?)ft
along side, the traffic will have to sequence as for a single runway.
Your
situation with the local commission might well be worsened if you pursue
trying to get a formal designation and as a result the commission looks
carefully into the regulations.

Where is this airport?

At 03:27 19 June 2008, BT wrote:
Wrong answer... you are relating that to IFR runways..
Our runways are paved, painted and 300ft centerline to centerline.. 0L7

BT

"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
At 22:04 17 June 2008, danlj wrote:

I am now on the airport commission, a good position from which to
request that we formally designate the 100 ft X 3000 ft grass area
paralleling the paved runway along its south side as a parallel runway
for recreation and training, with proper markings.


If you look into the CFRs about parallel runways you will find that
they
must be separated by 750ft, IIRC. This means you cannot "formally
designate" a second runway with markings, etc. at your site.

There are lots of airports where gliders operate from the grass
alongside
the paved runway, but none of these are designated as separate
runways.
You can continue to operate as you and the others do with a local
understanding of the procedures.

This means you have technically one runway and one approach path with
the
pilot having the choice of where to touch down. If I understand
parallel
runways correctly, they allow constant simultaneous approaches without
regard for the traffic on either side, and the traffic is governed by
a
tower. At an airport with no tower and landing areas closer than
750(?)ft
along side, the traffic will have to sequence as for a single runway.
Your
situation with the local commission might well be worsened if you
pursue
trying to get a formal designation and as a result the commission
looks
carefully into the regulations.

0L7, Jean NV
20R/02L, 4500 x 75, paved, lighted, traffic pattern on the west side of the
field
20L/02R, 3500 x 60, paved, no lights, traffic pattern on the east side of
the field
Infield to the east side of 20L/02R is graded level with the runway for
rolling clear and alternate landing areas.
This runway was designed for glider use but can be used by all aircraft.

You can look it up on Google Earth and measure it.
The glider club is on the east side of the airport.

BT

"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
Where is this airport?

At 03:27 19 June 2008, BT wrote:
Wrong answer... you are relating that to IFR runways..
Our runways are paved, painted and 300ft centerline to centerline.. 0L7

BT

"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
At 22:04 17 June 2008, danlj wrote:

I am now on the airport commission, a good position from which to
request that we formally designate the 100 ft X 3000 ft grass area
paralleling the paved runway along its south side as a parallel runway
for recreation and training, with proper markings.


If you look into the CFRs about parallel runways you will find that
they
must be separated by 750ft, IIRC. This means you cannot "formally
designate" a second runway with markings, etc. at your site.

There are lots of airports where gliders operate from the grass
alongside
the paved runway, but none of these are designated as separate
runways.
You can continue to operate as you and the others do with a local
understanding of the procedures.

This means you have technically one runway and one approach path with
the
pilot having the choice of where to touch down. If I understand
parallel
runways correctly, they allow constant simultaneous approaches without
regard for the traffic on either side, and the traffic is governed by
a
tower. At an airport with no tower and landing areas closer than
750(?)ft
along side, the traffic will have to sequence as for a single runway.
Your
situation with the local commission might well be worsened if you
pursue
trying to get a formal designation and as a result the commission
looks
carefully into the regulations.

KHMT has parallel asphalt runways, one wide/long one for all power traffic,
and one short/narrow one exclusively for glider operations. I've never seen
the ultralights take off from the small one, but they could. One or two
motorgliders routinely take off and land on the big runway.

Most club and student glider landings are in the dirt area between the two
runways (it's "grass" for about one week out of the year), but some tour and
private gliders land on the small asphalt one if traffic permits.

There is no sequencing of glider and power traffic that I am aware of. We
frequently are on parallel final approaches with power planes. Glider
patterns are on the north side, and power patterns are on the south side.
The power pilots might choose to delay or go around if they're uncomfortable
landing at the same time as a glider, but it's never been mentioned on the
radio.


"jb92563" wrote in message
...
The Hemet-Ryan public airport KHMT in CA opperates with a grass
landing area adjacent to one of the the asphalt runways.

They do takeoff from the asphalt however so its not exactly as you
describe.

They do have to sequence with other traffic since there is not enough
separation between the Asphalt and the grass.

I think the regular power traffic stick to the south runway since it
is adjacent to the GA hangers and parking where the gliders,
Ultralights and a few others use the North runway since it is close
to their hangers, parking etc.

There is a history here of the Airports development.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemet-Ryan_Airport

Lake Elsinore, CA Pvt airport CA89 has 2 parrallel runways with
several hundred feet separation, one for gliders and one for a busy
Skydive operation and we have strick adherence to specific patterns
and we never have any problems