Emergency Landing-Engine DEAD

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:44:52 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
wrote:

So what do you do? Over the weekend, a Bonanza driver was faced with
this issue and had a 2000' grass strip to land on. He and his
passengers were injured and the airplane was an apparent writeoff.
I've been on that strip many many times but intentionally. Well, I've
been on many such strips worldwide.
So, what do you do?

WAG

May have stretched the glide to make field and bird stalled over end
of R/W with wing dropping and hitting the ground first.

Sounds like he did a good job to me from the data we know now.

Big John

On Jun 17, 10:16*pm, Big John wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:44:52 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"

wrote:
So what do you do? Over the weekend, a Bonanza driver was faced with
this issue and had a 2000' grass strip to land on. He and his
passengers were injured and the airplane was an apparent writeoff.
I've been on that strip many many times but intentionally. Well, I've
been on many such strips worldwide.
So, what do you do?

WAG

May have stretched the glide to make field and bird stalled over end
of R/W with wing dropping and hitting the ground first.

Sounds like he did a good job to me from the data we know now.

Big John

Big John
I flew over the strip this morning and the airplane is still in place
on the north end of the runway and really close to the approach end of
the runway. There are trees and swamp on the north end, and I-65 at
the southwest end with swamp all around the area. All I saw were pics
of the a/c in the news, read the different reports, and saw the actual
accident site. The runway is well maintained, about 200' wideX2000'.
At least no one was killed or seriously injured. The Bo looked pretty
rough though.
I'm just guessing that he had a fairly steep approach angle with a
high sink rate to hit and stop where he did. It was well short of my
normal touchdown zone on that strip and I've been in there many many
times with students.
As any experienced pilot knows......"you had to have been there to
know what really happened or how......"
Best Regards
Ol S&B

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:50:16 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"
wrote:

On Jun 17, 10:16*pm, Big John wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:44:52 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"

wrote:
So what do you do? Over the weekend, a Bonanza driver was faced with
this issue and had a 2000' grass strip to land on. He and his
passengers were injured and the airplane was an apparent writeoff.
I've been on that strip many many times but intentionally. Well, I've
been on many such strips worldwide.
So, what do you do?

WAG

May have stretched the glide to make field and bird stalled over end
of R/W with wing dropping and hitting the ground first.

Sounds like he did a good job to me from the data we know now.

Big John

Big John
I flew over the strip this morning and the airplane is still in place
on the north end of the runway and really close to the approach end of
the runway. There are trees and swamp on the north end, and I-65 at
the southwest end with swamp all around the area. All I saw were pics
of the a/c in the news, read the different reports, and saw the actual
accident site. The runway is well maintained, about 200' wideX2000'.
At least no one was killed or seriously injured. The Bo looked pretty
rough though.
I'm just guessing that he had a fairly steep approach angle with a
high sink rate to hit and stop where he did. It was well short of my
normal touchdown zone on that strip and I've been in there many many
times with students.
As any experienced pilot knows......"you had to have been there to
know what really happened or how......"
Best Regards
Ol S&B

he did the very best he could at the time.
we can only hope that we do as well or better if it happens to us.
Stealth Pilot

On Jun 17, 11:50*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote:
As any experienced pilot knows......"you had to have been there to
know what really happened or how......"

Yes. The NTSB report won't tell us much. But here's a thought...

I think the pilot did either a very good job - or a very poor one -
but we have no way to know. Given the area around the airport, there
really wasn't any place else to land North of the field - and that's
where he came in.

Sometimes stretching the glide is the way to go. Many years ago, a
friend and former student of mine was flying a Kolb Twinstar - and the
Rotax quit at about 200 AGL on the climbout. His options for a
straight-ahead landing was basically trees. So he turned back.

Now the thing about the Kolb is that the climb speed is way higher
than the stall speed (much bigger difference than in the garden-
variety spam cans) so he had some speed he could bleed as well as
altitude. Also, he was a glider pilot, so he knew all about banking
45 degrees at 150 ft. Well, he pulled it off - sort of. He put it
back on the field, but he ran out of energy in the last bit of the
flare. Bent some tubing, but walked away. I suspect it would have
been much worse had he landed straight ahead into the trees. Really,
he did a great job.

On the other hand, I knew another pilot who was flying jumpers in a
C182 and ran out of gas on final. He could have just put it down on
the open grass short of the runway and done fine, but he stretched the
glide to the runway. Same basic result - ran out of speed and
destroyed the airplane but walked away. He was a ****up. Flies for
Southwest now.

Anyway, my point is that there are situations where getting the plane
to the runway with not quite enough energy to flare is the best you
can do - and other situations where it's gross incompetence. Not much
in the middle though.

The Bo is not normally landed power off (I know you know this - this
is more for the benefit of those lurking). In fact, if I were putting
one into that strip, I would likely be coming down at about 80 mph
with a lot of power. Best glide, if I remember right, is about 30 mph
more than that. So there are two possible explanations. Maybe the
pilot screwed up - slowed down too much and sank out. Or maybe he was
coming in clean at 110 mph, saw that he was not making the field, and
effectively started his flare at a few hundred feet, bleeding energy
to stretch the glide, dropping flaps and gear at the last second, and
just misjudged it by that much.

We'll never know.

Michael

In article
,
"Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote:

On Jun 17, 10:16*pm, Big John wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:44:52 -0700 (PDT), "Ol Shy & Bashful"

wrote:
So what do you do? Over the weekend, a Bonanza driver was faced with
this issue and had a 2000' grass strip to land on. He and his
passengers were injured and the airplane was an apparent writeoff.
I've been on that strip many many times but intentionally. Well, I've
been on many such strips worldwide.
So, what do you do?

WAG

Most of the Bo (and other higher-performance singles) never practice
engine-out emergencies. They also tend to fly approach at far too-high
airspeed.

I usually approach and land power-off, generally from an overhead
approach.

Proper technique:


1. Establish best L/D glide speed.

2. Keep it clean (no gear or flaps) until you have the field made.

3. Fly to overhead the field (if possible).

4. Keep it close to the field.

5. See #2 above.

6. Modulate glide angle with gear and flaps.

7. 1.3 x stall speed is right for most certificated planes.

8. Land in a full-flare.

Don't worry about ground roll in grass. The taller the grass the shorter
the roll.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

On 2008-06-18, Orval Fairbairn wrote:
Most of the Bo (and other higher-performance singles) never practice
engine-out emergencies. They also tend to fly approach at far too-high
airspeed.

In the case of an engine out, a higher approach speed might be
necessary. IIRC, I used to be on short final in an S-35 Bonanza at 65
knots IAS with full flaps, but I had some power on. The S-35 manual
cautioned the pilot to approach 10 knots faster in the case of engine
failure, to have sufficient energy for the flare. The sink rate in a
power off approach is also higher, it really does look like the ground
is coming up to smite you. If you've never landed one power off before
this could be a bit startling and induce the pilot to flare too early.

--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.

"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
...
On 2008-06-18, Orval Fairbairn wrote:
Most of the Bo (and other higher-performance singles) never practice
engine-out emergencies. They also tend to fly approach at far too-high
airspeed.

In the case of an engine out, a higher approach speed might be
necessary. IIRC, I used to be on short final in an S-35 Bonanza at 65
knots IAS with full flaps, but I had some power on. The S-35 manual
cautioned the pilot to approach 10 knots faster in the case of engine
failure, to have sufficient energy for the flare. The sink rate in a
power off approach is also higher, it really does look like the ground
is coming up to smite you. If you've never landed one power off before
this could be a bit startling and induce the pilot to flare too early.

--
That makes a lot of sense. The one time that I was along in a Bellanca
Viking for a radically reduced power approach, the descent rate and angle
were dramatically greater than a normal approach in the same airplane. That
was still with the engine just above idle--rather than windmilling.

Peter

In article ,
Dylan Smith wrote:

On 2008-06-18, Orval Fairbairn wrote:
Most of the Bo (and other higher-performance singles) never practice
engine-out emergencies. They also tend to fly approach at far too-high
airspeed.

In the case of an engine out, a higher approach speed might be
necessary. IIRC, I used to be on short final in an S-35 Bonanza at 65
knots IAS with full flaps, but I had some power on. The S-35 manual
cautioned the pilot to approach 10 knots faster in the case of engine
failure, to have sufficient energy for the flare. The sink rate in a
power off approach is also higher, it really does look like the ground
is coming up to smite you. If you've never landed one power off before
this could be a bit startling and induce the pilot to flare too early.

That is why you need to PRACTICE!

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
So what do you do? Over the weekend, a Bonanza driver was faced with
this issue and had a 2000' grass strip to land on. He and his
passengers were injured and the airplane was an apparent writeoff.
I've been on that strip many many times but intentionally. Well, I've
been on many such strips worldwide.
So, what do you do?


I must be missing a link to more info on this incident. Just from what I
see in your post, I would land on the airstrip if within gliding
distance. (2000 ft is enough.) Otherwise, look for another spot to land
on. What am I missing?

On Jun 18, 8:44*am, "Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote:
So what do you do? Over the weekend, a Bonanza driver was faced with
this issue and had a 2000' grass strip to land on. He and his
passengers were injured and the airplane was an apparent writeoff.
I've been on that strip many many times but intentionally. Well, I've
been on many such strips worldwide.
So, what do you do?

Well this is what I was trained to do. It works for me in practice ,
I just hope I have the presence of mind to do it when I really have
to.

turn excess speed into altitude and trim for best glide speed
try carby heat and mixture rich.
check wind direction
select landing spot
If height allows I aim for 2500 ft agl high point key at upwind end
of landing spot.
then aim for 1500 ft agl abeam landing pt on downwind.
if time permits I will try to get the engine restarted
check fuel and change tank if applicable
try left and right magnetos
try throttle at different positions
make a mayday call
give a passenger briefing
aim 1/3 into the field or runway
( better to be long than short)
turn base at 1000 ft agl
delay flaps until sure I am going to make it.
if still too high I will try slipping in
mixture idle cut off
magnetos off
fuel off
master switch off

Of course this all depends on altitude at which engine failure
occurs , if I dont have time I will ignore restart of engine, I will
do the mayday call and pax brief if I have time, but nothing will
take precedence over getting the airplane down safely.
I WILL NOT TRY TO STRETCH THE GLIDE. I would also prefer a field I
know I can make rather than an airfield I may be able to make.

Terry
PPL Downunder